How many of you are religious!

[GradGT]

Re: How many of you are religious!

I figured out that mindblast has a cool icon

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

anyone figured it all out yet?

Nope. Ayahuasca next Saturday, though.

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Nope. Ayahuasca next Saturday, though.

wow. have a safe journey. i've done 5meodmt. but it's nothing like an ayahuasca experience. i'm gonna do it some day though.

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Got worms, eh?

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

wow. have a safe journey. i've done 5meodmt. but it's nothing like an ayahuasca experience. i'm gonna do it some day though.

Thanks. I've done many hallucinogens but something about "the husca" rings true with me and my friend, who recently started posting here as Ego Lost. I love tripping with him because our perspectives on the experience would be opposite if it weren't for all the similarities. Perhaps I can talk him into relaying his version of the experience and I will do the same, we'll see. Similarities are the reason I value my memory. Finding similarities in deep meditation, profound physical exertion, lucid dreaming, sleep and food deprivation, psilocibin, lsd, and ayahuasca. The consistency is what brings about the validity in the pursuit of the unknown for me, but the differences are equally important.

Two topics to steer the thread back on track:

1.) I've recently been reading "Jisei" which are the poems written at the moment of death by Zen Monks. The most influential consistency is that not only do Zen monks laugh at the insignificance of temporal reality on their way onward, they often know well in advance when they will die. Now, most of the stories surrounding the Jisei are tales passed on from person to person and eventually written down. A few of the monks wrote their Jisei in the sand with a twig, then died sitting upright. Others wrote joking haiku, others wrote their Jisei a year in advance, then died exactly a year later. A few even wrote their poems, died, and then when their followers complained, revived themselves only two die a week later as they planned. How is it possible that these men not only predicted their deaths, but were so aware that they could die in the position of their choosing, oftentimes sitting upright?

2.) Regarding God and Christianity. What if God abandoned this version of reality? As in, what if God said in much more eloquent and benevolent terms, of course, "Wow, these guys really fucked up. I'm moving on," and just left us to our own demise? I mean, with the attitude of God as portrayed in the Bible, is that not possible? Is it totally impossible that God would just abandon this reality because of the path humanity has chosen, and instead he has moved on to better, more faithful existences? That would explain why so many people question their faith, and also why so many people say, "If there is a God how could he let this happen," etc. Why not?

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

If there is a god, that'd be the only possible explanation for this world.

 

[GradGT]

Re: How many of you are religious!

2.) Regarding God and Christianity. What if God abandoned this version of reality? As in, what if God said in much more eloquent and benevolent terms, of course, "Wow, these guys really fucked up. I'm moving on," and just left us to our own demise? I mean, with the attitude of God as portrayed in the Bible, is that not possible? Is it totally impossible that God would just abandon this reality because of the path humanity has chosen, and instead he has moved on to better, more faithful existences? That would explain why so many people question their faith, and also why so many people say, "If there is a God how could he let this happen," etc. Why not?

Humanity as a whole hasnt chosen any particular path, the choice of which path to follow comes down to the individual. you think humanity is bad now? it was far worse before the spread of Christianity.

people who actually do have faith (not just trying to tell themselves that they do) don't find themselves questioning it in the ways that you stated. the whole 'how could god let this happen?' argument is something people should have left behind in grade school. everyone knows that men did it, not God. If God was constantly deciding what he would allow people to do, there wouldn't be much point in our existance. God does have a defense mechanism to cope with the people that are faithless- he doesn't pay attention to them. Which is why people say 'I don't believe in God cause God never did anything for me', anyone with half a clue can see this is the wrong attitude to have, and explains why God isn't listening to you. If you want God to listen to you, try actually believing in him before you go asking for things.

Don't get lost in the dogma of organized religion, just cause the church says you're a sinner doesn't mean you're going to hell. I don't think you need any reminders that the church is run by men, and it's not the responsibility of men to judge other men. Don't let "im going to hell anyway" be your poor excuse to not believe in God, cause that's not the case.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Humanity as a whole hasnt chosen any particular path, the choice of which path to follow comes down to the individual. you think humanity is bad now? it was far worse before the spread of Christianity.

Worse is a judgement call, and therefore just opinion. Humanity, from the Bible, all goes back to Adam, Eve, and the apple. What if when Eve grabbed the apple, God said, "So that's that, on to the next attempt." Then took a more backseat, casual observation-type of approach, to this existence.

If God was constantly deciding what he would allow people to do, there wouldn't be much point in our existance.

Exactly. The bible says we have free will, yes. But not without rules, guidelines and restrictions, right? So, where does that leave us?

God does have a defense mechanism to cope with the people that are faithless- he doesn't pay attention to them.

Now, I don't want to step on your toes, but doesn't that seem a bit childish of God? I read that as literally, "You don't believe in me so I don't care about you." Like a spoiled little kid whose older sister won't play tea party with her.

Which is why people say 'I don't believe in God cause God never did anything for me', anyone with half a clue can see this is the wrong attitude to have, and explains why God isn't listening to you. If you want God to listen to you, try actually believing in him before you go asking for things.

So God created us and wants us to love him without any justification for our love. And we must have faith in him with no proof except for the words passed to us through preacher's and priests whom are just as fallible as the rest of us. And if you do not have faith in God and belief in his word, you're condemned to hell for all eternity. How does that seem reasonable?

Don't get lost in the dogma of organized religion, just cause the church says you're a sinner doesn't mean you're going to hell. I don't think you need any reminders that the church is run by men, and it's not the responsibility of men to judge other men. Don't let "im going to hell anyway" be your poor excuse to not believe in God, cause that's not the case.

No worries there, I was raised Catholic. We have the Purgatory scapegoat, remember?

 

[orange thing]

Re: How many of you are religious!

I never really thought that somebody like God would sincerely punish someone for not having serious faith, depending on the circumstance. For example, what about those individuals in parts of the country that have no idea he exists? It's not their fault. Is it? I think it's more of an issue with people that know who God is and deliberately ignore him and speak badly about him, as opposed to people who just simply don't know any better and flat out aren't sure.

 

[GradGT]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Worse is a judgement call, and therefore just opinion. Humanity, from the Bible, all goes back to Adam, Eve, and the apple. What if when Eve grabbed the apple, God said, "So that's that, on to the next attempt." Then took a more backseat, casual observation-type of approach, to this existence.

Worse is a judgement call? So is the statement that humanity is on a bad path. If you'd like me to list the specific ways the spread of Christianity positively affected civilization here's some facts:


-Before the spread of Christianity, Europe consisted of the Roman Empire and the warring tribes of the north. In Rome, brutal spectacles were held celebrating the perverse death of athletes and slaves. Eventually the Roman emporer Constantine converted to Christianity and put an end to these practices.

-In the north, warring tribes had been battling eachother for centuries, and only the most ruthless and brutal held onto what they had. Life then was a far cry from what is today. With the arrival of Christianity came the transformation into civilization.

You could argue about the atrocities committed by the crusades and the spanish inquisition, but we must remember that men are men, and it can take a long time to come around. What's important is that they did, and society today (although not perfect) is far less barbaric than it used to be, and the level of civility we experience today we owe to the spread of Christianity.

The story of Adam and Eve is OBVIOUSLY written metaphorically. You could say "What if God had done this" but you can't really go anywhere with it, because what if he didn't?

The bible says we have free will, yes. But not without rules, guidelines and restrictions, right? So, where does that leave us?

It leaves you with a choice. The guidelines say not to do things which are harmful to others, yourself, or society as a whole. Whether you believe in God or not, these guidelines serve to make a better world for everyone. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

Now, I don't want to step on your toes, but doesn't that seem a bit childish of God? I read that as literally, "You don't believe in me so I don't care about you." Like a spoiled little kid whose older sister won't play tea party with her.

A more literal translation would be "You deny my existence, what makes you worthy of my attention?". Although I think it's wrong to personify God, here's a more fitting example. Think of parents who disown their child, a child loves their parents unconditionally, but should that child still cling to his unsupportive parents, or should he ignore them until they choose to come around (or ignore them eternally, should they not)?

So God created us and wants us to love him without any justification for our love. And we must have faith in him with no proof except for the words passed to us through preacher's and priests whom are just as fallible as the rest of us. And if you do not have faith in God and belief in his word, you're condemned to hell for all eternity. How does that seem reasonable?

God created you and gave you the choice to do what you wish, because when you have that choice, the fact that you decide to love him would actually make it meaningful. He doesn't 'want' you to love him, it's your choice. Regarding the preachers/hell for eternity thing, it goes back to what I said about not falling into the dogma of organized religion.

No worries there, I was raised Catholic. We have the Purgatory scapegoat, remember?

You were raised Catholic, which is further evidence to what's wrong with it.

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Thanks. I've done many hallucinogens but something about "the husca" rings true with me and my friend, who recently started posting here as Ego Lost. I love tripping with him because our perspectives on the experience would be opposite if it weren't for all the similarities. Perhaps I can talk him into relaying his version of the experience and I will do the same, we'll see. Similarities are the reason I value my memory. Finding similarities in deep meditation, profound physical exertion, lucid dreaming, sleep and food deprivation, psilocibin, lsd, and ayahuasca. The consistency is what brings about the validity in the pursuit of the unknown for me, but the differences are equally important.

Two topics to steer the thread back on track:

1.) I've recently been reading "Jisei" which are the poems written at the moment of death by Zen Monks. The most influential consistency is that not only do Zen monks laugh at the insignificance of temporal reality on their way onward, they often know well in advance when they will die. Now, most of the stories surrounding the Jisei are tales passed on from person to person and eventually written down. A few of the monks wrote their Jisei in the sand with a twig, then died sitting upright. Others wrote joking haiku, others wrote their Jisei a year in advance, then died exactly a year later. A few even wrote their poems, died, and then when their followers complained, revived themselves only two die a week later as they planned. How is it possible that these men not only predicted their deaths, but were so aware that they could die in the position of their choosing, oftentimes sitting upright?

2.) Regarding God and Christianity. What if God abandoned this version of reality? As in, what if God said in much more eloquent and benevolent terms, of course, "Wow, these guys really fucked up. I'm moving on," and just left us to our own demise? I mean, with the attitude of God as portrayed in the Bible, is that not possible? Is it totally impossible that God would just abandon this reality because of the path humanity has chosen, and instead he has moved on to better, more faithful existences? That would explain why so many people question their faith, and also why so many people say, "If there is a God how could he let this happen," etc. Why not?

i feel you man. im on a break from the psychs for awhile, but usually 2-3 times per month i'm able to astral project. which is always like a trip for me. i also run every day. always puts me in an amazing headspace to think about things. i don't even run to get in shape or anything, just to think. it is an amazing high in itself. someday when im not living in an apartment i'm going to get an isolation tank.

i can tell you though i've experienced ego loss a few times. but it was usually on substances that gave me no choice. just took it straight away and i really didn't have time to know what was happening. probably a month ago i did a high dose Miprocin and faced what i imagine Ayahuasca to be like. for all intensive purposes i was facing real death. like in a moment it went from a normal trip la la la to this is the end of you. i learned the truth. best i can describe it as. hopefully it shows you what you need to know.

YouTube - Ayahuasca Trip
this is a good symbolic representation of what my experience was like. but in all reality it was nothing like this. but maybe some people can watch that and understand the magnitude of what happens when you're facing true ego death. you learn the truth. for good or bad. i can smile or cry about it. love it or fear it. the how, the why, the what, the where, the when, the who, the you.

have a safe journey.

 

[Sir Elton John]

Re: How many of you are religious!

happy tripping ceb and good luck

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

required reading. http://www.brainsturbator.com/pdf/DrRickStrassman-DMT-TheSpiritMolecule.pdf

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Some of the common ascetic practices of Jain Monks (and nuns) are –

* A person who is a monk or a nun has no relations. He enters monkhood by renouncing all relations and possessions.
* Jain Monks follow complete non-violence. They do not hurt any living being be it an insect or a human. They carry a special broom to sweep any insects that may come in the way while walking. Some monks wear a cloth over their mouths to prevent killing of airborne germs and insects while talking.
* They do not use electricity as it involves violence. They do not use any devices or machines. They always travel by foot, bare footed from city to city often crossing forests and deserts.
* They sleep on the floor without blankets and sit on the wooden platforms.
* A strict vegetarian diet without root vegetables is followed. Shvetambara monks do not cook food but solicit alms from householders. Digambara monks have only a single meal a day. They do not beg for food but make a resolution that if a householder, pure of mind and body, on his own volition offers them food in the prescribed manner, they partake a meal at his residence, remaining standing upright and eating only measured mouthfuls.
* Fasting i.e complete abstinence from food (and sometimes water) is a routine feature of monks. They undertake fasts sometimes more than a day, going continuously without food for a month. Some monks either avoid or limit medicines or hospitalisation as they practice non-attachment to their bodies.
* Other austerities include meditation in seated or standing posture near river banks where there is cold wind blowing or meditation atop hills and mountains, especially at noon when the Sun beats down at is fiercest. Such austerities are done as per the physical and mental capacities of each monks
* They are completely possessionless. They only own unstitched white clothes and a few bowls for eating. Male Digambara monks do not wear any clothes and carry nothing with them except a soft broom made of shed peacock feathers (pinchi) and a bowl made of dried coconut shell (kamandalu) as they consider clothes as possessions. However, Swetambera (white clad) monks do not consider unstitched white clothes as possessions.
* Jain monks and nuns practice complete celibacy. They do not touch or sit on a same platform with a person of opposite sex.
* They do not stay in a single place for more than two months to prevent attachment to any place. However during four months of monsoon (rainy season) known as chaturmaas, they continue to stay at a single place to avoid killing of life forms that thrives during the rains.
* Their whole day is spent either in study of scriptures or meditation or teaching to lay people. They do not indulge in worldly matters.
* All Jain monks undertake the final vow of Santhara or Sallekhana i.e. peaceful and detached death where medicines, food and water are progressively forsaken. This is done at the time of imminent death or when a monk feels that he is unable to adhere to his vows on account of advanced age or terminal disease.

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Worse is a judgement call? So is the statement that humanity is on a bad path. If you'd like me to list the specific ways the spread of Christianity positively affected civilization here's some facts:

Any form of control, be it polytheism, law, christianity, islam, judaism, or communism will generally result in less violence and cruelty due to the restrictions on the freedoms of man. Perhaps they channel this violence and cruelty into another outlet, say a war with a competing religion/nation/-ism, but the point is that they themselves are more in control. The fact that Constantine sold out to christianity and converted, causing pretty much mass murders of dissenters throughout the empire (gladiators/slaves or dissenters, take your pick), doesn't really help the case for christianity. Stating the drop in murder spectacles but ignoring the religiously based atrocities that followed is a little short-sighted.

There's nothing special about christianity other than it's very much in tune with people's wish for easy eternal rewards that don't take much work. In the end, that's all that matters, I suppose...

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Worse is a judgement call? So is the statement that humanity is on a bad path. If you'd like me to list the specific ways the spread of Christianity positively affected civilization here's some facts:


-Before the spread of Christianity, Europe consisted of the Roman Empire and the warring tribes of the north. In Rome, brutal spectacles were held celebrating the perverse death of athletes and slaves. Eventually the Roman emporer Constantine converted to Christianity and put an end to these practices.

He also waged war through Italy, had his son killed, and the wife that bore him. Constantine was a man with a lot of stress and a lot of guilt. No wonder he embraced Christianity, it offered answers to the unanswerable questions, reasons for his guilt, and absolution.

In the north, warring tribes had been battling eachother for centuries, and only the most ruthless and brutal held onto what they had. Life then was a far cry from what is today. With the arrival of Christianity came the transformation into civilization.

A tribe, warring or otherwise, is a civilization. Christianity brought their ideals to the north and forced them on the residents. You call it transformation into civilization, I call it the rape of a society.

You could argue about the atrocities committed by the crusades and the spanish inquisition, but we must remember that men are men, and it can take a long time to come around. What's important is that they did, and society today (although not perfect) is far less barbaric than it used to be, and the level of civility we experience today we owe to the spread of Christianity.

Barbarism is relative. I catagorize encouraging a society with an overpopulation problem and starving children in the street to not use profilactics as barbaric. I call blowing up abortion clinics barbaric. I call molestation in a perceived sanctuary barbaric.

The story of Adam and Eve is OBVIOUSLY written metaphorically. You could say "What if God had done this" but you can't really go anywhere with it, because what if he didn't?

Well, that's your opinion. Many Christian believers take it as fact. Scroll back a few pages in this thread and you'll find at least two.

It leaves you with a choice. The guidelines say not to do things which are harmful to others, yourself, or society as a whole. Whether you believe in God or not, these guidelines serve to make a better world for everyone. Whether you choose to follow them or not is up to you.

What about people that have never heard of your God? That's my point.

A more literal translation would be "You deny my existence, what makes you worthy of my attention?". Although I think it's wrong to personify God, here's a more fitting example. Think of parents who disown their child, a child loves their parents unconditionally, but should that child still cling to his unsupportive parents, or should he ignore them until they choose to come around (or ignore them eternally, should they not)?

So God is the child in your metaphor? Interesting choice because that was my point, again. I likened God's behavior to that of a spoiled brat. Evidently, you agree.

God created you and gave you the choice to do what you wish, because when you have that choice, the fact that you decide to love him would actually make it meaningful. He doesn't 'want' you to love him, it's your choice. Regarding the preachers/hell for eternity thing, it goes back to what I said about not falling into the dogma of organized religion.

What if you don't have that choice? What if you are unaware of the inherent choice?

You were raised Catholic, which is further evidence to what's wrong with it.

More unjustified opinion. Silly goose. If that's what you call evidence, it's easy to see why you believe as you do.

Jain Monk Information

I just got done reading an article about Jain monks. Synchronicity at its finest.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

have a safe journey.

happy tripping ceb and good luck

Done and done. And the only thing in my mind as I drove to work today was, "Why don't I just keep driving...?"

Empathy and thoughtfulness are chains.

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

They're the only things that give us our humanity, however.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

They're the only things that give us our humanity, however.

Or do they only enforce the illusion of humanity?

This is my train of thought regarding that possibility, we'll see where it goes:

What if (ah, the ever present question mark, hehe) your existence is a solo journey and everything, absolutely everything, is a test/challenge/obstacle that you must overcome - where everything you observe, perceive, and experience is for you and you alone.

Meaning I am for you. These words I'm typing I'm typing specifically for your experience, whatever it may be. So to you, I am merely a figure of experience like anything else in life and can be accepted or dismissed accordingly.

So every movie that you've seen is made for you. Every song that you've heard is for you. But the distincition, and a very important one at that, is that this is not in an egomaniacal sense, but is exactly the opposite.

Ego is the justification of your individuality in this reality. If you are totally alone, ego is lost because there is nothing for your ego to use as justification for its relevance. Ego has a sense of self? Yes, but only as a figure of experience - another factor in the innumerable amount of factors that attempt to influence your experience. I use "attempt" because the choice is yours to be affected or not, but that choice is controlled on a level deeper than consciousness, deeper than ego, and deeper than emotion - the level of intent.

So in this sense, your sub-everything intent is what determines your reality. But it is not so much your intent as just the intent you use. Any control of intent is merely an illusion, you can only glide along with intent and be aware of where it is and where it is going. Acceptance must come before the realization of true intent, so to glide along is a biproduct of the acceptance of no control.

So then the question is, is life merely a movie that we act in while watching? Are the scenes in that movie merely for viewing or is there something greater to the gathering of experiences?

Some people would see this underlying intent as accessing God's divine plan, but I do not. More so, I would see it as an undulation. A sort of mindless pulsation that merely is - for no reason other than the reason that it is.

I know we're walking through Crazytown here, but I'm about to take a turn down Crazystreet (if anyone is still reading, thank you, I just feel like writing this all out):

What if your awareness is consumed when you die?

So your existence is solely personal. Experience is solely for the experience. The distinction between life and death, along with everything else, is an illusion. And the ultimate conclusion to all of your experience is its irradication upon consumption. The Consumer, is doing what it does, existing for the sake of existence. But rather than having the illusion of Earth, cars, movies, TV, an orgasm, Taco Bell, etc, it merely consumes the collective experience of all that which experiences.

Now, would the true and accepted realization of all of this, offer the only opportunity for freedom? As in, you become aware of it all, and can thus, break free? Or is consumption inevitable?

The funny thing is, having your awareness be consumed sounds horrible, but the thought doesn't inspire fear so much as urgency. So, with intention being on a level deeper than the Consumer, could you glide on intent and not be consumed? Could you find infinite freedom rather than being assimilated into infinity - can you pass the test?

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

That's quite the selfish view, perhaps even more selfish than a solipsist. I don't know if I could go with the idea that everything was created for me as a voyage of pure experience.

So your existence is solely personal. Experience is solely for the experience.

If that's the case, then I will live my life the most selfish way I can and try to feel as good about my decisions as I can. If you can think back to your life/experience/whatever and not feel shame, then even if shame is a constructed emotion to chain me to life, it's all I know. Without these constructions, I think we're nothing more than animals. What is consciousness than simply giving yourself rules (whether they be imposed upon you or self-created) to follow? The more complex the rules, the more complex your behavior, and eventually "thought" evolves out of it, when you have a central thought process deciding which "rule" outrules another "rule."

Assume you could ascend/descend this prison of experience, what then? If your experiences are going to be consumed anyway, then what would it matter if you worked a 9-to-5 and went home to bratty kids and a bitchy wife compared to not working, living off an inheritance, and having a trophy wife and multiple mistresses on some island paradise? I think you're describing more of an egocentric nihilism than anything else :/ You introduce existential qualities, but then dash them by reminding us that all there is is experience, and all experience is consumed upon death, and therefore all is consumed upon death..

I prefer my mathematical afterlife, personally