How many of you are religious!

[Smartyr]

Re: How many of you are religious!

If that's the case, then I will live my life the most selfish way I can and try to feel as good about my decisions as I can.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ayn Rand's Virtue of Selfishness, no?

 

[Sloth-hybrid]

Re: How many of you are religious!

They should have called this thread, "how many of you want this thread to end"

 

[Sir Elton John]

Re: How many of you are religious!

They should have called this thread, "how many of you want this thread to end"

here is a thought... stop opening the thread

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ayn Rand's Virtue of Selfishness, no?

Exactly. What's more selfish than to live solely for your own eternal happiness?
Altruism is a lie.

 

[Sir Elton John]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Altruism is a lie.

how is it a lie? are you suggesting that it is not possible to live a altruistic lifestyle?

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Classic altruism has religious overtones which imply that if you live an altruistic lifestyle, you go to heaven.

This is obviously selfish (in the classical sense of the word), since you're doing good things not to do them, but because you'll go to heaven. I refer you to my Calvinist argument I've mentioned a few times before.

Newer altruism is claimed by atheists, who state that since they believe in no god or heaven, then they cannot possibly be doing it for an afterlife. I refer them to the fact that if they have no god and no afterlife, all they have are their actions and memories (unless they're nihilistic, in which case they aren't going to be altruistic), and so they'll be seeking good memories, cause for their "altruism." They seek to avoid their own personal hell and achieve a positive memory for themselves in the eyes of others by doing caring acts.

These acts may be good and they may be rewardless, but even Anonymous donors to hospitals and foundations still maintain the positive memory that they made a difference for the better. Anonymous may be even more selfish, since they now have the feeling that they have induced a notion in the populace that they affected to do good deeds without seeking reward. They then believe that they have sparked an evolution towards this form of "altruism," when in effect it is only done because you feel good when you do it - selfishness.

And of course, as Ayn Rand said, selfishness is not always a bad thing in society. Just short-sighted selfishness.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

That's quite the selfish view, perhaps even more selfish than a solipsist. I don't know if I could go with the idea that everything was created for me as a voyage of pure experience.

Well, I was saying not that it was "created" for you. That implies a creator, but rather that it is for you. If it makes you feel less lonely, it is for everyone else too like a constant, self-supporting and self-sustaining, illusion that works together with itself in the same way that water does.

If that's the case, then I will live my life the most selfish way I can and try to feel as good about my decisions as I can.

So you're content to participate in the illusion until the truth is revealed to you by the illusion? How could the truth ever be revealed?

If you can think back to your life/experience/whatever and not feel shame, then even if shame is a constructed emotion to chain me to life, it's all I know.

Exactly. It's all you know. What if there's more? What if the only way to sample the truth is to break down the illusion that we all support?

Without these constructions, I think we're nothing more than animals.

Our experience is different from animals, but the same. We have a questioning and judgemental mind because that is all we know from being raised. Animals have an accepting instinctual mind that is all they know from being raised. As humans we have both. Neither are necessary because the ride is all that matters, the minds are just different ways of generating experiences along the way.

What is consciousness than simply giving yourself rules (whether they be imposed upon you or self-created) to follow? The more complex the rules, the more complex your behavior, and eventually "thought" evolves out of it, when you have a central thought process deciding which "rule" outrules another "rule."

I could see that as chicken and egg. Was it rules that evolved thought or thought that evolved rules? But evolution has too much conotation. I would instead just say, changed. Evolution is moving towards an improved state, and I don't think that is applicable in reference to the human mind. I would say digging deeper into the illusion is worse than staying on the surface, though both are not desirable.

Assume you could ascend/descend this prison of experience, what then? If your experiences are going to be consumed anyway, then what would it matter if you worked a 9-to-5 and went home to bratty kids and a bitchy wife compared to not working, living off an inheritance, and having a trophy wife and multiple mistresses on some island paradise?

Exactly! It doesn't matter at all. They are just two different experiences.

I think you're describing more of an egocentric nihilism than anything else :/ You introduce existential qualities, but then dash them by reminding us that all there is is experience, and all experience is consumed upon death, and therefore all is consumed upon death.

Yeah, I'm not trying to fit into a schema, I'm trying to find the truth about existence. Color outside the lines. The kicker is the possibility that when experience is consumed you do not have to be bound to it and thusly, you are not consumed.

What if your level of detachment from your experiences is so complete that the experiences are collected seperately from you. You experience them but they do not influence you in any way. You feel the emotion, then let it go, you experience the event, then let it go. But it doesn't go "away", because all reality is you in the illusion, so you start to build your own collection of events that are impersonal, but at your disposal. Then at the moment of death - the only opportunity to experience truth - rather than having your personal reality (of which there is none at this point) be consumed by The Consumer instead it would be fed your bundle of experience, that you have no attachment to, while the you that is you finally accesses true freedom.

Where I said "empathy and thoughtfulness are chains".

The realization of the illusion cracks the chain. One can either use that crack to break the chain, or use it as a welding point to further refortify the chain.

Nihilism is void. While void and infinity have similar characteristics, they are very different. Existentialism is too limited.

I'm interested on your mathematical afterlife, what'd you have in mind?

 

[a.bully]

Re: How many of you are religious!

The best is when you get drunk and talk about religion or politics.

Can you say Fight Club?

 

[Sir Elton John]

Re: How many of you are religious!

i see what you are getting at and i never really thought about it that way

it is impossible to be completely selfless when no matter what you will encounter actions that will be self rewarding

of course someone who is attempting to be selfless would get some type of gratification out of helping others

thats something i can somewhat agree

i have a hypothetical situation though

say an atheist who has no intentions of dying is put into a situation where they could either watch a person die or save them and be killed themselves

if they choice the latter would that be an altruistic decision?

 

[Sloth-hybrid]

Re: How many of you are religious!

here is a thought... stop opening the thread

What? are you dumb?

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

What? are you dumb?

Dumb means mute. If you don't want to read the thread... Stop reading it.

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Cebrious: I'll respond when I have more time.

Elton: Shame and guilt are not foreign to atheists.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

i have a hypothetical situation though

say an atheist who has no intentions of dying is put into a situation where they could either watch a person die or save them and be killed themselves

if they choice the latter would that be an altruistic decision?

I would say that falls into line with fonis' definitions about atheists being survived by their positive memory. So you sacrifice yourself so that the other may live. I suppose the only way to truly analyze altruism would be personally. So for someone like fonis with the definition of "altruism is a lie" to perform a completely selfless act, he would have to believe it was selfless himself while keeping in mind the assertion that altruism is a lie. That pure act could then be called nihilistic or altruistic as it is unaffected by any and all influences.

Truths about altruism and nihilism, as with so much of reality, is personal.

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

What if (ah, the ever present question mark, hehe) your existence is a solo journey and everything, absolutely everything, is a test/challenge/obstacle that you must overcome - where everything you observe, perceive, and experience is for you and you alone.

Meaning I am for you. These words I'm typing I'm typing specifically for your experience, whatever it may be. So to you, I am merely a figure of experience like anything else in life and can be accepted or dismissed accordingly.

So every movie that you've seen is made for you. Every song that you've heard is for you. But the distincition, and a very important one at that, is that this is not in an egomaniacal sense, but is exactly the opposite.

Ego is the justification of your individuality in this reality. If you are totally alone, ego is lost because there is nothing for your ego to use as justification for its relevance. Ego has a sense of self? Yes, but only as a figure of experience - another factor in the innumerable amount of factors that attempt to influence your experience. I use "attempt" because the choice is yours to be affected or not, but that choice is controlled on a level deeper than consciousness, deeper than ego, and deeper than emotion - the level of intent.

So in this sense, your sub-everything intent is what determines your reality. But it is not so much your intent as just the intent you use. Any control of intent is merely an illusion, you can only glide along with intent and be aware of where it is and where it is going. Acceptance must come before the realization of true intent, so to glide along is a biproduct of the acceptance of no control.

So then the question is, is life merely a movie that we act in while watching? Are the scenes in that movie merely for viewing or is there something greater to the gathering of experiences?

Some people would see this underlying intent as accessing God's divine plan, but I do not. More so, I would see it as an undulation. A sort of mindless pulsation that merely is - for no reason other than the reason that it is.

I know we're walking through Crazytown here, but I'm about to take a turn down Crazystreet (if anyone is still reading, thank you, I just feel like writing this all out):

What if your awareness is consumed when you die?

So your existence is solely personal. Experience is solely for the experience. The distinction between life and death, along with everything else, is an illusion. And the ultimate conclusion to all of your experience is its irradication upon consumption. The Consumer, is doing what it does, existing for the sake of existence. But rather than having the illusion of Earth, cars, movies, TV, an orgasm, Taco Bell, etc, it merely consumes the collective experience of all that which experiences.

Now, would the true and accepted realization of all of this, offer the only opportunity for freedom? As in, you become aware of it all, and can thus, break free? Or is consumption inevitable?

The funny thing is, having your awareness be consumed sounds horrible, but the thought doesn't inspire fear so much as urgency. So, with intention being on a level deeper than the Consumer, could you glide on intent and not be consumed? Could you find infinite freedom rather than being assimilated into infinity - can you pass the test?

It's not crazy. I've seen what you've seen. It's the truth. It took me a little while to intergrate the realization, but it makes perfect sense to me now. You'll hear it in songs, see it in movies, feel it in people you meet, it's all you.

Now you understand the rabbit hole you're in. Like I said, for me I went through a little phase being sad about the revelation. This is all just me? I'm trapped with myself? But it passes and you'll see everything much clearer. It will show you the divine true reason to do good things in life. Because deep inside of everyone we're all the same. Literally. You can know other peoples pain because it's your pain. It's the reason to want to make the world a better place. And you can see other peoples love, and realize their love is the same as yours. You can know deep inside everyone wants the same thing because it's what you want deep inside of you. But then it's also the reason for violence, wars, hate, etc. You're just doing it to yourself, so what does it matter? People ask why God allows this type of stuff to happen. Because it's just you doing it to yourself.

Fear and love. They drive all actions. What are they though? They're an understanding of the same revelation. That this is all you. See it as love. Live selfless. Don't doubt what you've been shown. It's all truth.

 

[Sir Elton John]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Truths about altruism and nihilism, as with so much of reality, is personal.

most definitely

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

So you're content to participate in the illusion until the truth is revealed to you by the illusion? How could the truth ever be revealed?

If, as we've said before, my perceptions are fallible, then any judgment I make on the world or myself is potentially flawed. Therefore, the best judgment I can make is on the world I have presented to myself right now. Barring any argument of logic or some other pure science able to avoid the pitfalls of perception, I will live my life as how I think it should be lived given the current circumstance I believe to be true. Obviously, some perceptions are not to be trusted, but as they can be explained through science (such as eye tricks, etc), we can learn to avoid these and think our way past them.

Exactly. It's all you know. What if there's more? What if the only way to sample the truth is to break down the illusion that we all support?

How do you suggest you break down this illusion? Self-introspection is as fallible, if not more fallible, than perception. And taking mind-altering drugs to seek this truth I'm not sure is the most reliable way to do so. They'll give you another standpoint to view life from, of course, but only snapshots of various posits you can take on a situation. Perhaps, in a long-term test with every psychotropic drug available, all forms of meditation discovered, and so on, you could theoretically map your experiences and compare the result to "actual" life (regular perception for you), but until that point, they are vacations into a *probably* unlikely perception of life.

Our experience is different from animals, but the same. We have a questioning and judgemental mind because that is all we know from being raised. Animals have an accepting instinctual mind that is all they know from being raised. As humans we have both. Neither are necessary because the ride is all that matters, the minds are just different ways of generating experiences along the way.

True, definitely true. But our "free will" allows for a greater variety of experience to come about. Doesn't change your argument, however.

I could see that as chicken and egg. Was it rules that evolved thought or thought that evolved rules? But evolution has too much conotation. I would instead just say, changed. Evolution is moving towards an improved state, and I don't think that is applicable in reference to the human mind. I would say digging deeper into the illusion is worse than staying on the surface, though both are not desirable.

I would argue that you can show that rules came before thought, as hard-coded rules exist in any nervous system. Our brain being the most advanced, we have the most interchange amonst rules, and the ability for conflicts that need to be mediated to arise out of them. Ranging from the hard-coded anti-poison "rule" in the inferior dorsal lateral part of the brain (near the cerebellum, I think.. beginning to be bad at remembering names) where there are actually blood vessals that are slightly open (violating the blood/brain barrier, mind you) allowing just enough room for various toxins to be checked in the brain, inducing vomiting if any are detected, to Broca's Area - the speech center of the brain. Hell, just look at patients with their corpus callosum (sp) cut for their epilepsy: they literally have two brains at that point. If you show them images that only appear to one side of the brain, then if you show it so their left brain "sees" it, then they can talk to you about it; if you show it so their right brain "sees" it, then they can't tell you what they saw, but they will (and they won't understand why they're doing it) point it out with their left hand (controlled by the right brain), or write it out.

So if their "thought process" is unaware of what's going on in the right side of the brain, then that means that a very complex set of rules are on autopilot, and our thought process might be nothing more than the periaqueductal grey matter interacting with broca's area and the other language centers whose names elude me right now (something with a 'W'... funny, because lesions to these areas cause what I'm feeling right now..).

Exactly! It doesn't matter at all. They are just two different experiences.

Yeah, I'm not trying to fit into a schema, I'm trying to find the truth about existence. Color outside the lines. The kicker is the possibility that when experience is consumed you do not have to be bound to it and thusly, you are not consumed.

What if your level of detachment from your experiences is so complete that the experiences are collected seperately from you. You experience them but they do not influence you in any way. You feel the emotion, then let it go, you experience the event, then let it go. But it doesn't go "away", because all reality is you in the illusion, so you start to build your own collection of events that are impersonal, but at your disposal. Then at the moment of death - the only opportunity to experience truth - rather than having your personal reality (of which there is none at this point) be consumed by The Consumer instead it would be fed your bundle of experience, that you have no attachment to, while the you that is you finally accesses true freedom.

Where I said "empathy and thoughtfulness are chains".

The realization of the illusion cracks the chain. One can either use that crack to break the chain, or use it as a welding point to further refortify the chain.

Nihilism is void. While void and infinity have similar characteristics, they are very different. Existentialism is too limited.

I like what you said here. I'll really have to think about that before I can say anything about it.

I'm interested on your mathematical afterlife, what'd you have in mind?

Well, only mathematical in that an infinite afterlife is implied by the unanswered questions of our perception.

Assume there is no god or spirit, just matter (material monist view). Well, the limitations of our brains have a few unanswered questions, such as how would we perceive our own death if we're dead? If we exist solely in the bodies we have right now, then when we die, can we experience it?

And if we can't, then that's kind of like an exclusive end to a set. Like (Birth, Death) instead of [Birth, Death]. So, looking at that mathematically, we know that there is no way to be at the "end" of this open set, as you can infinitely get closer and closer to Death without reaching it, since you can't reach it. And as people can experience the flow of time differently (say when you're in a rush, sleeping, tired, etc), who's to say you don't simply experience time slower and slower as you near the point of death?

At that point, all you would have left is your brain. Perceptions would be minimal due to, well, shit, you're dying, and also your perception of time has slowed down. So with your only real realm of experience being your brain, that leaves your thought process / consciousness / and all their little tools and your memories.

Considering that the chains of Guilt, Shame, Happiness, Bliss, Contentedness, etc are very powerful tools of the mind, it would be possible that you continue to experience these emotions in regards to your life even while nearing the point of death.

This ties in almost perfectly with what people report with near death experiences:
"My life flashed before my eyes"
Your brain slowed down, had minimal perceptual input, and just ran past its memories, judging yourself at every turn.

So, what does this mean about the morality of this atheistic belief? It's worse than any of the major religions, in my opinion. In your mind, you can be your worst judge. Not those bullshit idiots who act like douchebags at every turn. In the inner depths of your mind, a normal person can judge themselves very poorly, explaining why Guilt and Shame often exist in people, causing a lot of drama amongst families, old friends, etc (guilt and shame often cause displacement of these feelings onto others, causing unnecessary problems).

Okay, so our entire life is playing past our brains, and we are judging ourselves at every point. What is the moral of this story? Live the best life you can, because otherwise you're living an "eternity" of shame and guilt with no power to do anything about it. This is the "Selfish" life that I think would be good to live. You live to be good to yourself and good to others (which is then being good to yourself). No bullshit confessions, no bullshit forgiveness, just simply if you live a good life, you will know it, and you will experience a good "afterlife."

Obviously there are a few problems with this: notably, people with brain damage obviously might not be able to judge themselves as well. But this is life, and exceptions occur. Perhaps they experience something similar, I'm not sure.

Also, people with particularly damage to their ability to remember, notably Alzheimer's patients. I don't know what they'd feel, but I do know that emotional memories and semantic memories are stored differently. Perhaps they would still be able to retain the emotional memories ('daddy beat me, I'm scared of daddy' but not the pin to your bank account 15 years ago).

And then there's also the problem of your brain's neurons not firing at an infinite rate. Eventually there'd be a slowdown to where you aren't thinking that "fast," but I think the asymptotic drop in the speed of time perceived takes care of this anyway. Also, a bonus is the report that the brain lives on for a while after death. Doesn't exactly help in the infinite sense, but it's nice to have.

And that's my theory in a nutshell.

Sorry for the long wait on a reply, I just had a bunch of shit going on recently, didn't want to half-ass it.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Sweet. I knew you didn't forget. I'll come back and read/respond in a few.

edit:

If, as we've said before, my perceptions are fallible, then any judgment I make on the world or myself is potentially flawed. Therefore, the best judgment I can make is on the world I have presented to myself right now. Barring any argument of logic or some other pure science able to avoid the pitfalls of perception, I will live my life as how I think it should be lived given the current circumstance I believe to be true. Obviously, some perceptions are not to be trusted, but as they can be explained through science (such as eye tricks, etc), we can learn to avoid these and think our way past them.

That makes sense. In that sense would it be possible to quiet your thoughts totally, eliminating all analysis and existing only in acceptance? Since the goal is the acceptance of yourself and your behavior in your reality, would you say it is possible to exist as pure acceptance? Or are thoughts everpresent, at best only temporarilly suspended during deep meditation, hallucination, etc?

How do you suggest you break down this illusion?

Perhaps, in a long-term test with every psychotropic drug available, all forms of meditation discovered, and so on, you could theoretically map your experiences and compare the result to "actual" life (regular perception for you)

Yes, exactly. But add to that list the study of ancient cultures free from the biases our modern culture has, like aborigines, native americans, aztec, toltecs, mayans, the ancient chinese, etc. And the experiences of hermits and others dedicated to their belief system fully and wholly, like monks, samurai, the devout of faith, entrepreneurs, true soldiers, wanderers, bums by choice, etc. And the experiences of those on their deathbed, diagnosed with a terminal illness, etc. And those that are not normal by societal standards, addicts, schizophrenics, autistics, epileptics, sociopaths, etc. As well as the experiences of those free to think uninhibited, like philosophers, eccentrics, visionaries, you, Ape, Elton, my IRL friends, etc.

I wouldn't use the term "map" so much as "connect", and that has been the most convincing factor in my questioning of reality. The similarities between the experiences that are found only at the most extreme points of those experiencing. I have examples, but I anticipate my response will be long enough without them, hehe, and the connections are much more meaningful if you foster them yourself.

Regarding rules, would you say that what you listed is seperate from instinct? Or do "rules" fall under the heading of "instinct" or instinct under them? I see your point though, but would like more clarification. Regulating body temperature, heart rate, oxygen intake, alcohol tolerance, etc, can all be controlled if the person dedicates himself to mastering his body. There is even documentation of Zen monks predicting the exact date and time of their death over a year in advance, then dying naturally, in a seated position, at their prescribed date and time. And for every instinct there is an exception, jerking away from pain doesn't apply to persons whose nervous systems don't feel pain, throwing up doesn't apply to persons without a gag reflex, etc. But the only connections I accept or support are those that are applicable to all which is why I have so many questions and doubt.

That's one of the best definitions I've ever heard of an atheist's view of life and the afterlife. Thanks for elaborating. I have often thought of atheism as a harsh system of belief because if your view of yourself is all you have and your view is shameful, guilt ridden, and negative, than that is your life. Perhaps, one of the many reasons so many Americans are on Prozac?

I'm not sure if I've asked yet but your description reminded me a lot of a scene from Waking Life, have you seen it? I knew we'd get into it one of these days. Damn I love threads like this.

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

you guys can debate this shit all you want, it doesn't matter whose right or wrong. it's all bullshit. you're lost in language. you won't find God reading about religions, drugs, science, philosphy. don't get me wrong, they can set you on the right path, but it takes a true real commitment of yourself to find the answers to what you're looking for. if you want it, it will find you. make it your life purpose. clear your mind. start fresh. believe there are no constrants and you will slowly begin to realize the only walls are the ones you've built. figure out what's right and wrong yourself. learn whats true and whats bullshit. but learn through EXPERIENCE. start meditating, read the Bible, drop acid, workout, visit Shamans, buy a telescope, volunteer at a homeless shelter, give away all your shit to Good Will, start practicing karma sutra with your partner. turn off everything you've been told. believe you can fly. believe there are no limits. you'll soon see it's true.

i say this because i've seen all laws broken. all it takes is a little faith.

 

[fonis]

Re: How many of you are religious!

practicing karma sutra with your partner...

Is that the sex life where you get what you deserve in the end?

I'll save my real responses for work tomorrow, when I'm bored off my ass.

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: How many of you are religious!

Is that the sex life where you get what you deserve in the end?

I'll save my real responses for work tomorrow, when I'm bored off my ass.

lolol. pardon my posting without rereading. kama sutra