Yes I am RETARDED and NO I don't run around a gate thinking I'm a badass PvP player
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ATTENTION DEMISE STAFF
- Thread starter Necrodog
- Start date
tetsujin-demise
Sorceror
Here's the truth:
1. We don't want to "Nerfe", but to FIX!
2. If you really are so "BAD-KICK-ASSes", you will be, when this is FIXED!
3. I've always admired to players, that have mastered the skills of the mage class. And I play for a very long time. The truth is that dexers were damn overpowered back then (I don't speak about Demise - but in general) - that's why mages got that silly books (allowing them to drink pots and use wrestle), that's why AI got capped at 35, and swing was capped to 1.25. That made the perfect balance that made that game so great. And now you cry, because we want to FIX a minor bug, that won't affect good players' skills!
1. We don't want to "Nerfe", but to FIX!
2. If you really are so "BAD-KICK-ASSes", you will be, when this is FIXED!
3. I've always admired to players, that have mastered the skills of the mage class. And I play for a very long time. The truth is that dexers were damn overpowered back then (I don't speak about Demise - but in general) - that's why mages got that silly books (allowing them to drink pots and use wrestle), that's why AI got capped at 35, and swing was capped to 1.25. That made the perfect balance that made that game so great. And now you cry, because we want to FIX a minor bug, that won't affect good players' skills!
MB
Knight
I know most of you I'm countering on this issue hate me and mine with a passion and are already discrediting me and forming a retort before you even read this. I normally stay out of these for that reason. I write all this with the disclaimer I haven't played OSI, only Demise, so I can't even cycle bro.
Anyway, I personally don't think miniheal is much different than the Razor era. The top players have always been able to live pretty much endlessly in a non-boxed-in 1v1 until they get too risky going big when both are low life. You've always had the lesser players that stand in one place spamming miniheal, but you can do that with Razor and that's never an effective tactic against a group focusing damage on you. It's always better to run while casting miniheals here and there in order to increase distance between you and your attackers who have to spend a longer amount of time casting their bigger spells. The only way someone is minihealing through a group of attackers is they aren't syncing damage and don't have mortal or wind mixed in. The advantage UOS does have is the ability to better manage targeting and crossheals, but PvP has continuously been evolving over my years on Demise and new UOS features are, to me, just the next adaptation you need to take on to be at the top levels. I find it absurd to put forth the notion that the veterans are suddenly not playing here because of FCR, since Demise has been this casting speed for all 10+ years and they all played here under that casting.
Wind has its uses in breaking up a choke or finishing off those defensively healing that you can't quite bring down (poor syncing) but can become annoying when heavily spammed the whole fight by several in an outnumbering force. Still, it's pretty easy to interrupt with a clumsy or thunderstorm and when they are protection casting it, you have so much time to run out of range. Run away, load as a group, come back and drop a target. I don't know how players don't realize they are winded or don't react by to being winded and you see them standing in middle of the enemies trying to cast a 3 second miniheal. I also find it strange to see the people who are most vocal about needing to nerf wind because they are almost all part of SEGA, who are the current worst offenders. If I'm not mistaken, Necrodog, you were one of the M winding continuously last night while losing a field fight with one or two extra people on your side and and our side never casting wind, so it's not the be-all and end-all of PvP that is being claimed. Wind has been in for years, it's just nobody realized it's potential because we ran 96 spellweaving that can't land against high resisting spells. About a year ago now, Barcode came back for a brief stint and introduced us to effects of 120 wind and wildfire in PvP by winding a harrower choke away from us. We adapted to it and they left after another month or so citing cheap tactics of using spellweaving in fights. Rest of the shard eventually followed suit by incorporating wind and wildfire. This had the effect of changing choke point PvP. Before all this, the complaint over Hz for years was over choke point PvP with para fields and withers. Spellweaving has flipped this in my view as the advantage now lies in the aggressors instead of defenders. The upper hand, if numbers are comparable, usually goes to the first side to send an advance winder over the para fields followed by the rest of their group. The other team then has the option to retreat and make a coordinated counter-attack or have enough weapon-based characters to put down the wind character before the rest of the winder's team comes in and wipes the disabled casters. Aggressive wildfire use also causes a steady retreat of a defensive guild. Passively sitting behind rows of fields is no longer foolproof.
One bad tactic oft employed is to have almost an entire guild casting wind. While the other group is certain to not be able to cast, there's nobody left in the wind army to do any damage. A group mixing up different character types and taking different roles that lend to the common goal of murder is going to triumph. When everybody takes on perceived overpowered template, the counter to that template will just start being used in response and quickly bring you down. That being said, I'd much rather be running from 6 mages instead of 6 archers or dexxers. Mages just seem more powerful because that's what the strongest players with the lowest ping typically prefer to play over the face-rolling-on-keyboard simplicity of dexxers and archers. There's not often a coordinated group of non-mages like there are coordinated mages.
Thunderstorm at 4/6 is an ineffective interrupter to spam in mounted PvP and in no way comparable to clumsy as you would expend your mana too fast. Nerfing spellweaving to 2/6 would cripple current spawning tactics and send us back to the dark days of 2011. Pixies are a non-factor for me and I don't know why they are brought up so much. They are so slow that you can off screen easily and if supposedly 90% of the players are using spellweaving, then two quick thunderstorms (or a mass dispel) wipes all of them. It never seems like they are doing full blast flamestrikes to me. They are only worthwhile for me as PvM tanks. 40 mana for half HP is retarded and would make the spell useless.
tl;dr adapt or cry, cry is free
Anyway, I personally don't think miniheal is much different than the Razor era. The top players have always been able to live pretty much endlessly in a non-boxed-in 1v1 until they get too risky going big when both are low life. You've always had the lesser players that stand in one place spamming miniheal, but you can do that with Razor and that's never an effective tactic against a group focusing damage on you. It's always better to run while casting miniheals here and there in order to increase distance between you and your attackers who have to spend a longer amount of time casting their bigger spells. The only way someone is minihealing through a group of attackers is they aren't syncing damage and don't have mortal or wind mixed in. The advantage UOS does have is the ability to better manage targeting and crossheals, but PvP has continuously been evolving over my years on Demise and new UOS features are, to me, just the next adaptation you need to take on to be at the top levels. I find it absurd to put forth the notion that the veterans are suddenly not playing here because of FCR, since Demise has been this casting speed for all 10+ years and they all played here under that casting.
Wind has its uses in breaking up a choke or finishing off those defensively healing that you can't quite bring down (poor syncing) but can become annoying when heavily spammed the whole fight by several in an outnumbering force. Still, it's pretty easy to interrupt with a clumsy or thunderstorm and when they are protection casting it, you have so much time to run out of range. Run away, load as a group, come back and drop a target. I don't know how players don't realize they are winded or don't react by to being winded and you see them standing in middle of the enemies trying to cast a 3 second miniheal. I also find it strange to see the people who are most vocal about needing to nerf wind because they are almost all part of SEGA, who are the current worst offenders. If I'm not mistaken, Necrodog, you were one of the M winding continuously last night while losing a field fight with one or two extra people on your side and and our side never casting wind, so it's not the be-all and end-all of PvP that is being claimed. Wind has been in for years, it's just nobody realized it's potential because we ran 96 spellweaving that can't land against high resisting spells. About a year ago now, Barcode came back for a brief stint and introduced us to effects of 120 wind and wildfire in PvP by winding a harrower choke away from us. We adapted to it and they left after another month or so citing cheap tactics of using spellweaving in fights. Rest of the shard eventually followed suit by incorporating wind and wildfire. This had the effect of changing choke point PvP. Before all this, the complaint over Hz for years was over choke point PvP with para fields and withers. Spellweaving has flipped this in my view as the advantage now lies in the aggressors instead of defenders. The upper hand, if numbers are comparable, usually goes to the first side to send an advance winder over the para fields followed by the rest of their group. The other team then has the option to retreat and make a coordinated counter-attack or have enough weapon-based characters to put down the wind character before the rest of the winder's team comes in and wipes the disabled casters. Aggressive wildfire use also causes a steady retreat of a defensive guild. Passively sitting behind rows of fields is no longer foolproof.
One bad tactic oft employed is to have almost an entire guild casting wind. While the other group is certain to not be able to cast, there's nobody left in the wind army to do any damage. A group mixing up different character types and taking different roles that lend to the common goal of murder is going to triumph. When everybody takes on perceived overpowered template, the counter to that template will just start being used in response and quickly bring you down. That being said, I'd much rather be running from 6 mages instead of 6 archers or dexxers. Mages just seem more powerful because that's what the strongest players with the lowest ping typically prefer to play over the face-rolling-on-keyboard simplicity of dexxers and archers. There's not often a coordinated group of non-mages like there are coordinated mages.
Thunderstorm at 4/6 is an ineffective interrupter to spam in mounted PvP and in no way comparable to clumsy as you would expend your mana too fast. Nerfing spellweaving to 2/6 would cripple current spawning tactics and send us back to the dark days of 2011. Pixies are a non-factor for me and I don't know why they are brought up so much. They are so slow that you can off screen easily and if supposedly 90% of the players are using spellweaving, then two quick thunderstorms (or a mass dispel) wipes all of them. It never seems like they are doing full blast flamestrikes to me. They are only worthwhile for me as PvM tanks. 40 mana for half HP is retarded and would make the spell useless.
tl;dr adapt or cry, cry is free
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Kallitcha
Squire
In my 15 years of playing uo, I have discovered that everytime people complain about a "said" skill, they nurf "said" skill, and from that nurf... A month later everyone is complaining about how overpowered the next skill is and it gets nurfed.
98 they changed the way dex worked because mages were loosing unfairly.
99 they adjusted fc fcr because mages were ruling.
99 heavy hitting halyards were two hit killing everybody, they adjusted the damage.
00 tamers were killing everything the first tamer nurf
01 theives were disrupting pvp
02 fencing stuned pvp to death,
03 more taming. Nurf to death
04 faction players overpowered
The list goes on and on and on.
People will find exploits. As long as your able to counter the exploits it's balanced. Nurfing only opens up the next big exploit, and with soulstones it's a cake to adjust skills.
royal kapero2
Sorceror
MB's arguments had convinced me, he is probably the one who came with concretes. For the common good we better leave it like it is.
royal kapero2
Sorceror
PS: Ian Sucks
Diz
Wanderer
Umm... 98 hally mages were wrecking ass, only saw legit dexxers who were rich enough to swing Vanqs every time they suited, on a legit connection (aka not AOL/Prodigy), who went out with 110 potions, and they were always with at least 2 tank mages.
FC/FCR didn't even exist in 99...
Also, did I seriously just read MB waxing poetically about how another guild had to actually show him what crowd control does in a localized field fight? I don't even...
And to put forth the notion that players quit because they couldn't adapt to scripting more automation into a program rather than more skillful interaction with the game itself? That was the insinuation. Lol?
Kallitcha
Squire
They didn't call it fc/fcr at that time, but they adjusted casting speeds at that time.Umm... 98 hally mages were wrecking ass, only saw legit dexxers who were rich enough to swing Vanqs every time they suited, on a legit connection (aka not AOL/Prodigy), who went out with 110 potions, and they were always with at least 2 tank mages.
FC/FCR didn't even exist in 99...
Also, did I seriously just read MB waxing poetically about how another guild had to actually show him what crowd control does in a localized field fight? I don't even...
And to put forth the notion that players quit because they couldn't adapt to scripting more automation into a program rather than more skillful interaction with the game itself? That was the insinuation. Lol?
Diz
Wanderer
Fastcasting (as in the actual action) wasn't a legitimate thing back then, nobody did it, whether that was for general connection reasons, lack of syncing (more like lack of VOIP), or inefficient macros thru UOExtreme or UOAssist.
Nobody did it, especially with precasting + big hally hits. You were tempting RNG anytime you weren't ghealing if they came with a hally instead of a debuff to interrupt. Better yet, no bolas, so just keep running + chug a gheal on cooldown.
No one was spamming mini heal in 99.
Nobody did it, especially with precasting + big hally hits. You were tempting RNG anytime you weren't ghealing if they came with a hally instead of a debuff to interrupt. Better yet, no bolas, so just keep running + chug a gheal on cooldown.
No one was spamming mini heal in 99.
marcusstone
Sorceror
What I wouldn't give for the days of machine gun darting...
otimpyre
Sorceror
Reds cry about not being able to be completely dominate over blues. From what I have seen if there is absolutely anything that gives a PvM a fighting chance or any advantage over PvP. Reds will complain, troll, and generally bitch until the mechanics are completely in there favor. Like essence of wind has now be edited. Why? Because, the reds cried until it was fixed. Thus, we always arrive back at the famous quote "please nerf paper to over powered, scissors are fine. ~Rock" Personally I want glass swords 1x use, does 10000k damage to your attacker and yourself killing you both in a explosion of glass shards. I heard tale of these being in Ultima in the earliest days. Myth? Dunno but, I would love to suicide bomb some Reds. Or make me staff so I can just teleport around typing [kill on reds all day until I am caught and banned. jk LOL But, oh how much fun that would be if only for 5 mins.
Mantvis
Sorceror
Seen it. The one I have seen only had one hit and then it would shatter.
Abdul-Qadir
Traveler
Whatever98
Squire
would like to see you greater heal with a dexer stood next to you
Glass Sword is from Ultima 7 btw
damnit mb, stop giving away my tactics. but the co-ordination thing is true, you almost never see anything other than mages working together. it's very easy tho isn't it? just get a targetter up, run so they're somewhere on the screen, press target the enemy button on steam. dexxer is harder to play for co-ordination, it's only 1v1 where mage is harder to play, because you have to defend yourself as well. also it's hard to co-ordinate things which aren't 100% going to hit, there's a big element of chance involved with dexxer, you have to be right next to the target in order to even try to hit, you have to be 2 spaces close to your friend to cross heal him, try that when you're running around mounted lol. it's far more difficult than a mage group, but i agree it would kick ass if you could pull it off.
i dunno if it works, but i always just pull the pixes off a couple of screens away and assume they cant dismiss and re-summon them if they're not in earshot?
you really cant stick around when they're ripping level 7 spells on you tho. and you try casting chivalry aoe with 5 targets casting on you and 75 chiv lol. i doubt it would even kill them, it does like 10 damage and they have decent hp for what they are. you wouldn't even get to cast it with 4fc. if you attack the pixies it frees the main target up to dump, if you attack the main target it frees the pixies up to dump. that's why people mention them.
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royal kapero2
Sorceror
We should focus of nerfing trammies instead of fighting each other, why do they have 5 facets for being cowards and pvpers have only one? Demise policy was for always reward trammies and punish feluccans. It's time to change.
I do agree with the facet thingy. It's a pain in the ass not to be able to access some stuff on the trammie side.
What Whatever98 said about archers pvp seems not so true to me: yeah a group of mages can run offscreen, cast spell and then target the same guy. Same thing goes for dexxers/archers aswell. And these type of characters hit faster than spells and deal more damage, not to mention paralyze, mortals, etc.
Let's be honest, I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed and all, it's part of Demise actually and people (including me) have to play around that, but if those archers pvp templates were not that op, why the heck is everybody running one? Of course the gear to get before being decent with that type of gameplay might be a pain in the ass, but the effectiveness is simply incredible.
What Whatever98 said about archers pvp seems not so true to me: yeah a group of mages can run offscreen, cast spell and then target the same guy. Same thing goes for dexxers/archers aswell. And these type of characters hit faster than spells and deal more damage, not to mention paralyze, mortals, etc.
Let's be honest, I'm not saying it needs to be nerfed and all, it's part of Demise actually and people (including me) have to play around that, but if those archers pvp templates were not that op, why the heck is everybody running one? Of course the gear to get before being decent with that type of gameplay might be a pain in the ass, but the effectiveness is simply incredible.
MadeInQuebec
Forum Member of the Year 2008
Do you really want 5 facets to spread reds and PVP seekers around?
If you want to have a hard time finding a fight, sure go ahead, but I truly doubt this is what you want.
I've played on servers were all facets were open to everyone and there was a shitoad of pvp anyway. In towns and in spawns.