9/11

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

Personally, I think planes hit the buildings. I'm pretty certain that they could cause the complete collapse of the two without any additional assistance from the government. That is not to say that governments and private entities don't plot and accomplish similar things all the time, but I'm not compelled to believe they did in this case.

I'm more concerned with why it happened in the first place, and how the government used the opportunity to enact laws and programs that further limit a lot of the freedoms that were essential to the founding of our country. Limiting the power of centralized government was a very fundamental consideration of the founding fathers, as well as the protection of privacy (so you can say and think what you want about that very government, should it turn corrupt).

Here is a link to what wikipedia has on the history of Iran.

History of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can dispute it or think differently, which of course you should always question what is presented to you. Specifically though, since 1908, after the discovery of oil, this place has been an intense hotbed of foreign political and military intervention. If you take the time to read a little on the reign of Mohammed-Reza Shah, you will garner some information on US involvemnt in maintaining a monarchy instead of a democracy. Take it for what it's worth. I'm just trying to say that we have a long history of involvement in not just Iran, but many countries around the globe to protect our interests as a world superpower. Every world superpower does similar things, and that creates enemies. It is nothing to be surprised or alarmed about.

I am a little disappointed by the post 9/11 acts of Congress and New York to compensate the families of those injured, with payouts over 1 million dollars.

September 11th Victim Compensation Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
September 11th Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of the people killed were indeed very highly compensated individuals who were involved in economic decisions that really did affect people around the globe very substantially. I am not sure if that had anything to do with them being chosen as targets. Many of the families of the people affected actually thought they could do better by suing the Airlines individually because the people killed were so highly compensated, and they had to forego the possibility of appeal if they signed on. I wonder if this was some form of hush money to prevent many of the reasons and questions behing why or how the attack occured from coming to light in court.

Regardless, I don't see why anyone else that gets affected from similar issues should be left on their own to seek compensation that will never come, or even the slightest of care and concern from their nation. A young 18-yr old soldier that is on the front lines that is making 20k+benefits dying as a result of the same conflicts receives no such special treatment. A lot of travesties are tied up in this whole event that have little to do with the original attack.

 

[Suil Ban]

Re: 9/11

maybe, you kiddies should go back to sunday school and learn a few fundamentals that our fathers before us tied to our country's foundation. maybe thats why our nation is in such turmoil. and please kids out there, dont believe for one second to actually ask urself if there's a higher power is a waste of time. invest some research, which clearly most of you do, to formulate ur own opinion, before u jump on the wagon with the non-believers. i in fact believe in God. i'm not a bible thumper, by no means, but for you to pursade people who play this game of a younger nature, who has a mold-able mind, then ask yourself this question, are u no better than I?







the answer is no, u are not.
p.s. "IN GOD WE TRUST" - something wrote on a piece of our nation's monetary system, that no one "pays" any attention to NEMORE>

rofl

 

[shindig]

Re: 9/11

To understand 9/11 you have to understand a bit about history.

Around the world there are paramilitary groups, in Latin America we often refer to them as Guerrillas, rebels,
and in Africa and the Middle East we call them "insurgents", terrorists, etc. They are like shadow armies and come in many flavors. When you hear of some leader being assassinated (pakistan recently) one of these groups is likely responsible, rather than just some pissed off citizen.

Today there are more than two dozen guerrilla conflicts worldwide. Examples: Angola, Sudan, Darfur, Uganda, Palestine/israel, Iraq, Turkey, Kosovo, Peru, Nicaragua, Chechnya.

We've sided with some of these groups in the past when it was to our benefit. In the 1980s the CIA and Pakistan's intelligence agency, the ISI, provided arms and money to radical Muslims in a fight against the Soviet Union.

Osama Bin Laden was hired to organize training camps, and according to a CIA translator the US was on intimate terms with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, using htem to further US goals in Central Asia. REPUBLICAN congressman Dana Rohrabacher is quoted as saying, "The Taliban was a construct of the CIA and was armed by the CIA... The Clinton administration, along with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, created the Taliban."
Taliban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia HE WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN ANY OF US

So then, we were on the same side with Bin Laden until Iraq invaded Kuwait. Bin Laden rushed to Saudi Arabia to offer his organization's services to defeat Saddam and protect Saudi's interests in Kuwait.

Bin Laden flipped out when the Saudi's chose the US forces over his, and let them base in Saudi Arabia during desert storm, seeing it as some religious violation to have us heathen imperialists on sacred muslim soil.
Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So then Bin Laden turns his attention to America. He attacks the Cole, and Clinton was chasing Bin Laden but the CIA and FBI neither would sign off that for a fact Bin Laden was responsible for the cole bombing.
YouTube - Clinton Kicks the Crap out of Fox News Part 2

Quote: "Evidence has since come to light that the original targets for the attack may have been nuclear power stations on the east coast of the U.S. The targets were later altered by al-Qaeda, as it was feared that such an attack "might get out of hand". Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bin Laden was just 1 member of Al-Qaeda and he actually denies being the one responsible which is wierd because he's the main target you'd think he'd love to take credit for it, if he did take credit for it we would still chase him just as hard.

Quote: "Messages issued by bin Laden after September 11, 2001, praised the attacks, and explained their motivation while denying any involvement.[109] Bin Laden legitimized the attacks by identifying grievances felt by both mainstream and Islamist Muslims, such as the general perception that the United States was actively oppressing Muslims."

I'm inclined to believe it was terrorists showing us what they've been doing in other parts of the world, sometimes for us. They see us on TV driving our SUVs to the mall, stuffing our faces and they see how oblivious we are to some of the fucked up shit done to people in war torn countries over the last 50 years...

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

One of the things that has worried me is how it became so easy to label someone a terrorist, or to consider an attack as a 'terrorist attack'. This prevents having to get into the real reasons behind why an entity is taking action against us. Similar labeling has always occured in religious based conflicts, with anyone being a part of a less established religion being labeled - a heretic. Thus it was ok to burn them at the stake or kill them for having differing views.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of crazies out there that have religion or private gain motivatng their actions. If we let those people come to power, then we would be in trouble down the road. We have the same kinds of people here too though. Personally, I think all of the follow-up stuff with Iraq occured because it was a prime opportunity to establish local control over a lot of terrain in the Middle East to protect our oil interests and to have a better ability to use military influence over the region. It was also a very good opportunity to transfer taxpayer wealth to the many Military Industrial companies that have a large hand in our government. There are always a lot of things going on behind the scenes that we don't have the privilege of knowing about, at least not until a very long time later.

I also wonder how much less it would cost in lives and money to find out why certain people hate us, allow them to state their grievances directly, publicly, and completely for the entire world to record, and then make direct reparations if it is merited. That is the kind of thing that might ease the strain between people better than our current methods, but maybe that isn't really the intent behind of our actions.

 

[shindig]

Re: 9/11

Well, terrorism is a tactic or method, not a people, but it sounds more scary than guerrilla-warfare or resistance army so we use it.

I see no difference between fundamentalist christians and radical muslims.

Both have commited acts of terrorism and I equally hate both.

I never heard of muslims until 2001. Hell, even Tim McVey was fueled by a feeling of unjust actions taken by our government towards a group of people in Waco.

 

[Diamond's Inc.]

Re: 9/11

people on the subject of 9/11 and the moronic thoughts associated with this, dishearten my feelings of the human psyche quite badly. moments like this, make me realize how fucking stupid people are.

 

[peteliv]

Re: 9/11

if she wrong then your just as wrong as her.

and she makes a very good point. ur gonna stick with ur outlook on as well as ill stick with mine.

but any of you are more then willing to send me your "debunking" stuff as i will read it so i know what to look at from both sides.

fucking serious. this post is so stupid it has to be a troll. i'll respond anyway. i was referring to the thousands of people that died that day and that CONTINUE to die during the war that was started because of this bullshit. never forget. god damn. hard concept i guess

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

I didn't read everything people posted along the way, but there are so many things that are clouded in secrecy that it is perfectly legitimate to speculate. It has been proven infinitely times over that governments lie to their own populations, and that all sorts of plots occur all the time.

What people tend to ignore is history, and lose sight of who did what first. It's easy to see people that hate us and want to strike back without taking the effort of getting at how they came to feel that way. If you think that all the people out there are just nut jobs that want to kill and maim for no reason, then you've likely only listened to your own side of the story for too long. We've killed millions of innocents, whether you want to begin with the American Indians and talk of things like the trail of tears, or you want to talk of Nuclear bombs extinguishing tens of thousands in a second. You don't get to throw around the word terrorism with our history, it's as hypocritical as it gets. These people are at war with us, and maybe for good reason. It's not right to only see your own side of the story, and that is something as Americans we've been doing for quite a while now. You can get a taste of it in every aspect of our lives, whether you observe the way high schoolers treat eachother, the way we handle ourselves driving around, or the people that seem to be our heroes in professional athletics.

At least people are talking about it, and discussing it. That's part of remembering.

 

[peteliv]

Re: 9/11

I didn't read everything people posted along the way, but there are so many things that are clouded in secrecy that it is perfectly legitimate to speculate. It has been proven infinitely times over that governments lie to their own populations, and that all sorts of plots occur all the time. true

At least people are talking about it, and discussing it. That's part of remembering.

true

>>implying

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

I guess you are implying the middle part of what I said is false.

You can boil it down to one statement that you can't contradict. When we are at war, we have killed all sorts of innocents.

It shouldn't be an affront or shock when an enemy does the same to achieve its goals. To think that we have always been the good guys in every situation in our history is both laughable and dishonest. If we can't even be honest with ourselves, then how can we expect anyone else to respect us.

 

[Rasah]

Re: 9/11

people on the subject of 9/11 and the moronic thoughts associated with this, dishearten my feelings of the human psyche quite badly. moments like this, make me realize how fucking stupid people are.

You don't feel like that everyday when justice is used as justification for hypocrisy? I became a misanthropist the moment I was enlightened enough to start forming my own opinions...

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

I'm on our side, but I'm also on the side of truth and honesty, something which has been a handicap to me my entire life. Our allies and enemies are not fools. They are fallible men and women just like you and me. To treat them as less than our equals is disrespectful and unproductive. Even if we choose to forget or ignore our past, they will not. Some of these people harbor their grudges for millenia. We have to have some consideration for our past mistakes, and acknowledge them and make amends, or destroy our enemies and potential threats completely. Either path has some chance of success, but doing neither is a guarantee for failure, and we likely won't survive the hate that we will breed.

What I try to remember from September 11th each time it comes around, is how precious and fragile our democracy is, and how easily it can be lost. I hope that what we have left is not just an illusion.

 

[peteliv]

Re: 9/11

freedom of speech makes everyone terrorists

 

[WillyDaSquid]

Re: 9/11

Is it fair to say someones opinion isn't their own if it coincides with a majority? I never understood that. People that are big into the '9/11 truth movement', love to say, "Think for yourself!", or something along those lines. I am thinking for myself, just because my opinion doesn't side with a particular persons thoughts, isn't to say I'm not capable of forming my own opinion.

Truth of the matter is, no matter how much a person 'thinks' they know, they don't know the half of it. Its all just speculation for us. There is no person in here with enough background or education to make me believe otherwise. That is unless, you can provide us with some sort high credential with the US government.

Everyone has their own opinion on the subject. Its silly to be overly vindictive of the conspiracy theory. There just isn't enough information to formulate a viable argument. Regardless, of the propaganda you might of seen over the internet. Even in the case that there was, it would be a much better for a person with real experience to formulate the argument. Otherwise, you just look like you're crazy.

 

[peteliv]

Re: 9/11

well the fact is some people DO know

or at least some people think some people know which is why this fire is still a-ragin

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

It's been a while since I looked up when the term first came into use. I do recall something about Great Britian referring to our founding fathers as terrorists, but it has been a very long time.

A lot of the stuff that went on in WWI and WWII involved indiscriminate fire-bombing of civilian populations. I don't know how you can consider Nuclear bomb strikes on an enemy population as anything less than a successful act of terrorism. If you need to know for certain that our government is not always in the right, you should read what you can on our treatment of American Indians. The Cherokee were one of the few peoples that had the perseverance and reserve to try to win their case in our own biased law system. They won, and were still forcibly removed from their land during the time of Andrew Jackson and Martin Van Buren. Land stolen, homes and property destroyed, herded into concentration camps, and forcibly marched under military direction with at least 4,000 dying along the way. If that happened to you, maybe you would have a little bit of a different perspective about the nature of our government. All I will say about it.

 

[WillyDaSquid]

Re: 9/11

well the fact is some people DO know

or at least some people think some people know which is why this fire is still a-ragin

Exactly, people THINK they know. Which is the reason people have been arguing things like religion for the last.. however long. Although, religion is much a more complex machine than any form of government could ever imagine. With societies way of thinking now a days, you could post a video on youtube proposing the coming of the Anti-Christ and it would have followers. Its just the 9/11 conspiracy theory is an easier pill to swallow. Everyone hops on the bandwagon. It doesn't matter if it makes them a heretic or not.

The government can't really defend themselves on the subject. Otherwise, it opens them up to much stronger can of worms than they could ever possibly imagine. Their much better off with the current stance. Its such a disproportionate argument, thats its not worthy of a defense.

The funniest thing, they love to talk about formulating THEIR own opinion. Yet, their opinion is based off of a 45 minute video they watched on youtube. Irony, anyone?

 

[Mara]

Re: 9/11

We need secrecy to protect things like military weapon specifications that have been paid for by the taxpayers at enormous expense.

We need openess so that we can formulate correct opinions on the nature of our government and it's leaders who we are paying to serve us. For a government to hide much of what it does behind a murky veil of illusions precludes its credibility as a democracy, since its voters are in the dark.

 

[peteliv]

Re: 9/11

yea black ops weapons is only thing that keeps our cuntry safe for the moment no one knows what we might use next

 

[Ezekiel84]

Re: 9/11

whats with this never forgotten bs... name 3 people who died in it.

edit: and dont google

i personally lost 2 family members (no reason to say their names for the sake of you. may they rest in peace). the day isnt to remember specific people. its about remembering all of the innocent men and women who lost their lives while living a normal life. over 3000 moms/dads/grandparents/sons and daughters lost there lives. thats what you remember. i bet if your mother had died in one of those towers you wouldnt have this way of talking.

for your thoughts on this post i suggest you just get the hell out of the country. your not a true american. i bet if we were invaded on foot you would curl in a ball in your room. i know you like to be a badass on the forums and have something shitty to say on everyones threads but damn SHOW SOME GOD DAMN RESPECT YOU PEICE OF SHIT. people like you dont have a place in america.