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9/11
- Thread starter Cynical Machine 2.0
- Start date
Sirkah
Sorceror
Re: 9/11
first of all. sorry for your loss.
secondly, you say you are going to remember the brash detail of what happened. not the single, independent people. understood.
thirdly, 4400 US troops have died after the attack on 9/11. you factor in the "terrorists", and that number is significantly higher. if anything, any "people lovers" should be damn near ashamed we even retaliated. I'm guessing you're a "people lover"
fourthly, i will not leave america. just because you're afraid of my opinion, does not call for me to be exiled. how "unamerican" of you, sir, Seeing as how america was built on Thinkers, or "rebels", as the redcoats called us.
fifthly, you would not see me cower, tremble, shake in my boots, or cry if i were being invaded. Invasion has happened throughout history, and has become custom in males for when shit gets tough, and our testosterone gets a pumpin, we forget all emotion and go straight to the aggression. Or atleast I do.
sixthly, i am a badass on a forum. hear me flex!
Seventhly, ill show my respect in my own ways. you can cry all you want, it isn't gonna bring anybody back.
and eighthly, fuck you.
Ezekiel84;2125711 said:
first of all. sorry for your loss.
secondly, you say you are going to remember the brash detail of what happened. not the single, independent people. understood.
thirdly, 4400 US troops have died after the attack on 9/11. you factor in the "terrorists", and that number is significantly higher. if anything, any "people lovers" should be damn near ashamed we even retaliated. I'm guessing you're a "people lover"
fourthly, i will not leave america. just because you're afraid of my opinion, does not call for me to be exiled. how "unamerican" of you, sir, Seeing as how america was built on Thinkers, or "rebels", as the redcoats called us.
fifthly, you would not see me cower, tremble, shake in my boots, or cry if i were being invaded. Invasion has happened throughout history, and has become custom in males for when shit gets tough, and our testosterone gets a pumpin, we forget all emotion and go straight to the aggression. Or atleast I do.
sixthly, i am a badass on a forum. hear me flex!
Seventhly, ill show my respect in my own ways. you can cry all you want, it isn't gonna bring anybody back.
and eighthly, fuck you.
Mara
Knight
Re: 9/11
It's just that 9/11 has very little to do with being in the military, or choosing to fight in Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, unless you are working to establish our military dominance over the region so that we can have better first strike capability and local political influence. The government used 9/11 to take away many freedoms that are fundamental to a legitimate democracy, and then used the confusion and anger of the people to invade another sovereign nation that for a long time was actually our ally.
Many people join the military to try to be patriotic, but in the military, you are not in control of your destiny. You are designed to be a tool, the best killing or protecting machine you can be. The people that make decisions on how best to use you do not risk their own lives or the lives of their children, and they have many different motivations behind what they do. Many people join because it is the best option available to them, even though the pay for enlisted men is low in the beginning. They make up for it with the benefits and the ability to have your education paid for. If it was like the civil war, where you might not be getting paid at all, and might not even have shoes provided, people would not be fighting a war abroad, they would find other options for their lives.
I care a lot about the people that died in 9/11, but these types of things always occur. The scale of the loss must be considered, and the reasons why it happened. Serving in the military doesn't necessarily mean that you are honoring their loss, you may be getting involved in things that further tear down the democracy that we have left. I think everybody that posted here cares alot, and I can promise you they care more about you than the men and women that make the decisions to go to war. It's just that there is a much bigger picture to think about before you rush to attack someone who may not really be your personal enemy.
It's just that 9/11 has very little to do with being in the military, or choosing to fight in Iraq. Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, unless you are working to establish our military dominance over the region so that we can have better first strike capability and local political influence. The government used 9/11 to take away many freedoms that are fundamental to a legitimate democracy, and then used the confusion and anger of the people to invade another sovereign nation that for a long time was actually our ally.
Many people join the military to try to be patriotic, but in the military, you are not in control of your destiny. You are designed to be a tool, the best killing or protecting machine you can be. The people that make decisions on how best to use you do not risk their own lives or the lives of their children, and they have many different motivations behind what they do. Many people join because it is the best option available to them, even though the pay for enlisted men is low in the beginning. They make up for it with the benefits and the ability to have your education paid for. If it was like the civil war, where you might not be getting paid at all, and might not even have shoes provided, people would not be fighting a war abroad, they would find other options for their lives.
I care a lot about the people that died in 9/11, but these types of things always occur. The scale of the loss must be considered, and the reasons why it happened. Serving in the military doesn't necessarily mean that you are honoring their loss, you may be getting involved in things that further tear down the democracy that we have left. I think everybody that posted here cares alot, and I can promise you they care more about you than the men and women that make the decisions to go to war. It's just that there is a much bigger picture to think about before you rush to attack someone who may not really be your personal enemy.
LKP
Forum Member of the year 09'
Re: 9/11
I don't condemn anyone for seeking the truth. If anyone believes we've been lied to or misled about anything, and you want to find the true story, more power to you. That said, you're not going to find it in these 9/11 conspiracy theories. The government did make mistakes and there were some warning signs of 9/11 before it happened. Had they been caught, the attacks could have been prevented. If you want the details, read the 9/11 Commission Report. The Report shows our government is fallible and did make mistakes; the problem is that some conspiracy nuts allowed that to snowball. The "game of 'telephone'" analogy isn't bad:
It started as "The FBI, CIA, and NSA didn't properly communicate all their information with each other; had they done so, they might have been able to prevent 9/11." That was simplified to "The government made some mistakes which allowed 9/11 to happen." Further, "the government allowed 9/11 to happen." It's not a far cry from there to "The government had a hand in 9/11" and "The government planned 9/11."
There's another possible reason they haven't struck again, and I think this reason is the truth: we have made a difference. There may be plenty of expendable Jihadists out there waiting for the order to strike, but maybe the order isn't coming because we've been constantly harassing the leadership ever since. Maybe the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and the integration of the intelligence agencies has helped prevent successive attacks. Maybe the terror alert system that we all ignore because it has no perceived meaning for us is working. Behind the scenes, I'm sure those color-coded buzzwords have a real impact on how security is handled. Even if you can get a weapon on a plane, and even if that is enough to hijack the plane, it doesn't matter if you don't know what to do next.
As for Bin Laden, why haven't we found him yet? Well, maybe we have. Maybe we've let him continue to skulk around in caves and release a new tape every few years because it's the best course of action. Killing him would make him a martyr; what if keeping him (dubiously) alive is keeping his subordinates dormant, as no one else will assume command while he lives? Or perhaps he's dead, and the government knows it, but they don't make an official statement to that effect for the same reason.
It's just like the reason Bush never had an exit strategy for Iraq. I wish he would have just come right out and say it: We aren't leaving any time soon. American soldiers are deployed all over the world in a variety of roles, from tripwires to regional operations. We're still in Japan, Korea, Germany, Italy, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and many other countries. Why should Iraq be any different? In the long term, it would be an excellent place to base a division for future operations in the Middle East.
The above is pure conjecture, but at least to my mind, it doesn't make any accusations. My point is that we don't always know the whole story, and there may be more to it than what the government tells us in many cases. When the story is doubtful, by all means question it. But you don't have to go so far as to accuse your own democratically elected leaders of murdering their countrymen.
There just isn't any evidence for the conspiracy theories. And even if there were, the motive is still missing. Knocking down the WTC and punching a hole in the pentagon wouldn't have been necessary to rally support for a global war on terrorism. There would be other, better, safer options. We already had a base in Kuwait; couldn't we just have hired some Iraqis to feign an invasion of it? Half a dozen soldiers could have provided the impetus to invade just as well as thousands of innocents. Maybe that's not the best example, but if you think the whole GWOT and the aftermath of 9/11 are based entirely on false pretenses, then there simply is no need for such dire ones. It could have been done a lot more cleanly.
The events of 9/11 were legit, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. Our government may have failed us in its failure to prevent such attacks, but that doesn't make it evil.
And Mara, there may be some mercenary types in the military who are just there for the benefits, but please don't lump us all together. I'm an enlisted man, and while you may not agree with any of my opinions, hopefully you can at least appreciate that I think for myself. I have met many more rational soldiers than mindless ones. Just because we're a bunch of alpha males with access to serious hardware, and we do some crazy shit sometimes, doesn't make us mindless killbots.
I don't condemn anyone for seeking the truth. If anyone believes we've been lied to or misled about anything, and you want to find the true story, more power to you. That said, you're not going to find it in these 9/11 conspiracy theories. The government did make mistakes and there were some warning signs of 9/11 before it happened. Had they been caught, the attacks could have been prevented. If you want the details, read the 9/11 Commission Report. The Report shows our government is fallible and did make mistakes; the problem is that some conspiracy nuts allowed that to snowball. The "game of 'telephone'" analogy isn't bad:
It started as "The FBI, CIA, and NSA didn't properly communicate all their information with each other; had they done so, they might have been able to prevent 9/11." That was simplified to "The government made some mistakes which allowed 9/11 to happen." Further, "the government allowed 9/11 to happen." It's not a far cry from there to "The government had a hand in 9/11" and "The government planned 9/11."
WillyDaSquid;2124934 said:
There's another possible reason they haven't struck again, and I think this reason is the truth: we have made a difference. There may be plenty of expendable Jihadists out there waiting for the order to strike, but maybe the order isn't coming because we've been constantly harassing the leadership ever since. Maybe the creation of the Department of Homeland Security and the integration of the intelligence agencies has helped prevent successive attacks. Maybe the terror alert system that we all ignore because it has no perceived meaning for us is working. Behind the scenes, I'm sure those color-coded buzzwords have a real impact on how security is handled. Even if you can get a weapon on a plane, and even if that is enough to hijack the plane, it doesn't matter if you don't know what to do next.
As for Bin Laden, why haven't we found him yet? Well, maybe we have. Maybe we've let him continue to skulk around in caves and release a new tape every few years because it's the best course of action. Killing him would make him a martyr; what if keeping him (dubiously) alive is keeping his subordinates dormant, as no one else will assume command while he lives? Or perhaps he's dead, and the government knows it, but they don't make an official statement to that effect for the same reason.
It's just like the reason Bush never had an exit strategy for Iraq. I wish he would have just come right out and say it: We aren't leaving any time soon. American soldiers are deployed all over the world in a variety of roles, from tripwires to regional operations. We're still in Japan, Korea, Germany, Italy, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and many other countries. Why should Iraq be any different? In the long term, it would be an excellent place to base a division for future operations in the Middle East.
The above is pure conjecture, but at least to my mind, it doesn't make any accusations. My point is that we don't always know the whole story, and there may be more to it than what the government tells us in many cases. When the story is doubtful, by all means question it. But you don't have to go so far as to accuse your own democratically elected leaders of murdering their countrymen.
There just isn't any evidence for the conspiracy theories. And even if there were, the motive is still missing. Knocking down the WTC and punching a hole in the pentagon wouldn't have been necessary to rally support for a global war on terrorism. There would be other, better, safer options. We already had a base in Kuwait; couldn't we just have hired some Iraqis to feign an invasion of it? Half a dozen soldiers could have provided the impetus to invade just as well as thousands of innocents. Maybe that's not the best example, but if you think the whole GWOT and the aftermath of 9/11 are based entirely on false pretenses, then there simply is no need for such dire ones. It could have been done a lot more cleanly.
The events of 9/11 were legit, and there's no reason to believe otherwise. Our government may have failed us in its failure to prevent such attacks, but that doesn't make it evil.
And Mara, there may be some mercenary types in the military who are just there for the benefits, but please don't lump us all together. I'm an enlisted man, and while you may not agree with any of my opinions, hopefully you can at least appreciate that I think for myself. I have met many more rational soldiers than mindless ones. Just because we're a bunch of alpha males with access to serious hardware, and we do some crazy shit sometimes, doesn't make us mindless killbots.
Re: 9/11
Yeah, for some reason theres people who like to think of guys like us who join the military as not having anything better do with our lives and that we're just brainwashed morons. They don't take into consideration the fact that every Service member is the son or daughter of someone, and that they have families, wives, husbands and kids. Yeah there are some guys who stay in the military just because it's a job with benefits, but hell you can find people like that in any line of work.
Yeah, for some reason theres people who like to think of guys like us who join the military as not having anything better do with our lives and that we're just brainwashed morons. They don't take into consideration the fact that every Service member is the son or daughter of someone, and that they have families, wives, husbands and kids. Yeah there are some guys who stay in the military just because it's a job with benefits, but hell you can find people like that in any line of work.
WillyDaSquid
Sorceror
Re: 9/11
Tons of extremely good points in there.
LKP;2126455 said:
Tons of extremely good points in there.
Mara
Knight
Re: 9/11
I have complete respect for the men and women in the military, and I think I have said so on many occasions. I have worked with them for many years of my life and always got along with them Far Far better than my civilian counterparts. I almost made it into one of the Officer Academies, denied only based upon medical reasons they dug up from when I was twelve, I trained officers and enlisted in my civilian duties, and I tried to enlist again during the call for soldiers, and they would not allow me to enter based on past medical issues.
Part of being in the military though, is about following your orders regardless of what you feel or think about them. Getting bogged down in all the political details can make you much less effective warriors, and is not supposed to be your burden to bear (at least not in theory). How you are used is the responsibility of the civilian population and our elected leaders. But you also have to be honest, that if you were supplied the way that the South was during the civil war (or even the way some of our enemies are), most people in the military would not be fighting a war abroad. It would not be considered a necessity. I consider pretty much anyone a mercenary for the most part here, including myself, you would not be out there without some form of pay or benefits unless the situation was most dire. The people in the military are also tied a bit to the hand that feeds them, and receive a lot less information from outside opinions. I know this, I have been around them for a very long time, and when I was paid similarly I felt the same way about a lot of issues. You are not completely objective as long as you are receiving your money and benefits and education from the government.
I'm not saying that I think that people in the military are less intelligent or less able to draw the right conclusions. I have been around some of the smartest and most solid all-around people that I know when I was around them. But they are the product of an environment that builds them up to believe the most in only their side's views so they can be the most effective in their tasks. A lot of words to say I guess, but I do care quite a lot, and try my best to see things from everyone's point of view, even our enemies - if only to get to the right answer on our side.
LKP;2126455 said:
I have complete respect for the men and women in the military, and I think I have said so on many occasions. I have worked with them for many years of my life and always got along with them Far Far better than my civilian counterparts. I almost made it into one of the Officer Academies, denied only based upon medical reasons they dug up from when I was twelve, I trained officers and enlisted in my civilian duties, and I tried to enlist again during the call for soldiers, and they would not allow me to enter based on past medical issues.
Part of being in the military though, is about following your orders regardless of what you feel or think about them. Getting bogged down in all the political details can make you much less effective warriors, and is not supposed to be your burden to bear (at least not in theory). How you are used is the responsibility of the civilian population and our elected leaders. But you also have to be honest, that if you were supplied the way that the South was during the civil war (or even the way some of our enemies are), most people in the military would not be fighting a war abroad. It would not be considered a necessity. I consider pretty much anyone a mercenary for the most part here, including myself, you would not be out there without some form of pay or benefits unless the situation was most dire. The people in the military are also tied a bit to the hand that feeds them, and receive a lot less information from outside opinions. I know this, I have been around them for a very long time, and when I was paid similarly I felt the same way about a lot of issues. You are not completely objective as long as you are receiving your money and benefits and education from the government.
I'm not saying that I think that people in the military are less intelligent or less able to draw the right conclusions. I have been around some of the smartest and most solid all-around people that I know when I was around them. But they are the product of an environment that builds them up to believe the most in only their side's views so they can be the most effective in their tasks. A lot of words to say I guess, but I do care quite a lot, and try my best to see things from everyone's point of view, even our enemies - if only to get to the right answer on our side.
armyof12monkeyss
Wanderer
Re: 9/11
i dont need to name 3 people. just one, my friend eddie day
Sirkah;2124258 said:
i dont need to name 3 people. just one, my friend eddie day