Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

I think we might just disagree on this one. My concern for information is not what validates it. If I decide I no longer believe in airplanes and call them dragons, I consider that wrong. It sounds like you'd view that as correct because I didn't care to consider all that is involved with the object.

Yeah, I guess so. I don't know how to make my point any more clear at this point. I'm just trying to convey that since all of reality is dependent on your perspective and observations, then that really is their entire world, so it really is a dragon. Perhaps to another observer (and in the case) in another reality, it would be a plane that the primative people are calling a dragon, but that is an entirely different existence.

As we've stated, yes, logic is reliable as far as itself is concerned. If the information they have is reliable, so is the logical conclusion they come up with. Since they do not have all the information, it cannot be considered completely logical.

We've boiled this one down to the lowest denominator too. I say they have all the information, you don't. Like I said above, you're analyzing their reality from your reality. You're analyzing their existence from your existence.

Would you say it's possible then to deceive someone?

No. In this sense it is only possible to allow yourself to be deceived because there is no one else there is only you and your own illusions.

Yeah, I wonder what's in those files of his. (=

Don't we all, hehe. I got my buddy Doug to post on here, "Ego Lost", so we'll keep the conversation going and drag out his perspectives, hehe. I like where this thread has gone, thanks for purporting my examples in my absense, hehe. Don't worry, it hasn't gone to my head, hahah.

 

[cloroxman]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Ceb I see what you are trying to say (over and over again):

We perceive what is we think is reality. Perception is fallible.

Therefore reality (or what we perceive as reality) is fallible.


With that, I place faith in that this reality that I am perceiving, at this very moment, is an intersection of everyone else's reality. Or rather, "the reality" everyone else is living in.

so...science and EVERYTHING else including religion is a "faith" due to reality being a faith to begin with. (Abstract as hell I know, I apologize).

In other words, with reality being a faith, everything included in reality is a faith by inclusion.

Am I close here without sounding like Mojo Jojo? I skimmed through some posts so I apologize if I screwed that up.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Ceb I see what you are trying to say (over and over again):

We perceive what is we think is reality. Perception is fallible.

Therefore reality (or what we perceive as reality) is fallible.


With that, I place faith in that this reality that I am perceiving, at this very moment, is an intersection of everyone else's reality. Or rather, "the reality" everyone else is living in.

so...science and EVERYTHING else including religion is a "faith" due to reality being a faith to begin with. (Abstract as hell I know, I apologize).

In other words, with reality being a faith, everything included in reality is a faith by inclusion.

Am I close here without sounding like Mojo Jojo? I skimmed through some posts so I apologize if I screwed that up.

Word. Even I have trouble understanding me, so bravo, hehe.

 

[zlatan fulgere]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Word. Even I have trouble understanding me, so bravo, hehe.

Yeah chasing a Nihilist's ideas around is like trying to herd cats.

To Ego_Lost, there must be *something* in here you disagree with or would like to add to. (=

 

[Ego_Lost]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Well kids...

I suppose I'll start with this idea of the ego. Why is it such a bad thing?
Ego: The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
This trait more than any other is what distinguishes us all as human beings. It is what has helped us as a species to begin to delve into the mysteries around us. Before bashing the ego as your personal bain of existence, consider paying homage to those ego's that have come before you. Everyone here today is here because of someone else who's ego bid them to do one thing or another that in turn allowed you to be alive. Without their ego striving to cure a disease, feed more people, or even just raise a family whos members happen to be your ancestors, you'd have never even been able to consider the idea that an ego is bad. The only ways I see to get over your ego is to die or not be born. I've only experienced one of these states so far and there wasnt a whole lot there. I'll take the ego anyday.

Ceb, I'm afraid to ask...How does realization in and of itself go against science?

Without a physical form how does one experience consciousness, dreaming, will, intent, or epiphany? If I have to have a physical form to experience or perceive, how can the latter two be all that there is? It seems to me that the physical form is much more important. The fact that there is a physical form constitutes a physical reality. The physical reality therefore is the most real of all of the fore-mentioned concepts because it is the pre-requisite to them all.

To close this jumble of thoughts that are getting more and more incoherent as I add to them; I'd like to take a minute to stand up for science and show one major reason why the phenomenon that it studies do not fall into the same category as religion.

Religion requires faith and at least one believer. Take away all people of a particular faith and that religion is gone. You cannot prove many of the things spoken of by religion, hence faith.

The things that science studies are outside of those bounds. Regardless of there being people around the phenomena studied by science still exist. All things within science that are accepted as fact can be proven by anyone willing to take the time to do it. Gravity does not need you to believe in it. It will act upon you no matter what and can be studied and found to have the same effects by two guys on opposite sides of the globe who've never met.

Ok...I'm done.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Well kids...

You love it. <3

I suppose I'll start with this idea of the ego. Why is it such a bad thing?
Ego: The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
This trait more than any other is what distinguishes us all as human beings. It is what has helped us as a species to begin to delve into the mysteries around us. Before bashing the ego as your personal bain of existence, consider paying homage to those ego's that have come before you. Everyone here today is here because of someone else who's ego bid them to do one thing or another that in turn allowed you to be alive. Without their ego striving to cure a disease, feed more people, or even just raise a family whos members happen to be your ancestors, you'd have never even been able to consider the idea that an ego is bad. The only ways I see to get over your ego is to die or not be born. I've only experienced one of these states so far and there wasnt a whole lot there. I'll take the ego anyday.

The fact that there "wasn't a whole lot there" is everything. Your perspective is based on the assumption that there is time, was a past, and will be a future. That there is existence without you, before you, and will continue after you. How are you so sure about all of these assumptions?

Ceb, I'm afraid to ask...How does realization in and of itself go against science?

See, I told you I'd drag you into this.

Without a physical form how does one experience consciousness, dreaming, will, intent, or epiphany? If I have to have a physical form to experience or perceive, how can the latter two be all that there is? It seems to me that the physical form is much more important. The fact that there is a physical form constitutes a physical reality. The physical reality therefore is the most real of all of the fore-mentioned concepts because it is the pre-requisite to them all.

Where is your physical form in dreaming? You assume it's present in real life snoozing the night away, but how do you know? How are intent, dreaming, will, and epiphany tied to the body? You answered my question with a question. You assume they all come from your brain, when there is no scientific evidence (the only evidence you accept as valid) to back this assumption. So... why do you believe? Why do you have faith? Please pass on to me the opinions that you find so believable.

To close this jumble of thoughts that are getting more and more incoherent as I add to them; I'd like to take a minute to stand up for science and show one major reason why the phenomenon that it studies do not fall into the same category as religion.

Religion requires faith and at least one believer. Take away all people of a particular faith and that religion is gone. You cannot prove many of the things spoken of by religion, hence faith.

Take away all the believers in science and you get the same result. The scientific assumption that reality continues on could still be an assumption. But beyond that there can never be proof. Prove that there is existence without observation, I dare you to try.

The things that science studies are outside of those bounds. Regardless of there being people around the phenomena studied by science still exist. All things within science that are accepted as fact can be proven by anyone willing to take the time to do it. Gravity does not need you to believe in it. It will act upon you no matter what and can be studied and found to have the same effects by two guys on opposite sides of the globe who've never met.

That's what you believe. You don't know that the guys on the other side of the globe are real in this reality. You could be dreaming right now. You could be in a coma living Ego Lost's wild life and then wake-up to find it was all an illusion. You have faith in science that it is bigger than you, just like God. You have belief in the scientists that they will answer the questions you have and the future questions to come, just like priests. You trust your perception even though you have first hand experience of its unreliablility. You trust your ego to verify your existence.

Riddle me this, what if your ego is your enemy? Strengthening the illusion so you are less prepared for whatever after? Just a thought, since we touched on Descartes. But what if?

Ok...I'm done.

We'll see... Hahaha.

 

[Hydrofiend]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

The Devil only exists, because of your belief in him, same goes for that other guy..

 

[Underwater Ape]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Well kids...

I suppose I'll start with this idea of the ego. Why is it such a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing. People just don't understand that all they are is an ego. Turn on the evening news to see what happens because people don't understand it.

Ego: The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
This trait more than any other is what distinguishes us all as human beings. It is what has helped us as a species to begin to delve into the mysteries around us. Before bashing the ego as your personal bain of existence, consider paying homage to those ego's that have come before you. Everyone here today is here because of someone else who's ego bid them to do one thing or another that in turn allowed you to be alive.

that's an assumption. hello ego. while i do believe what you're saying to be true, i also realize it might be wrong. i personally don't remember experiencing my own birth. you can make assumptions about it based on your perceptions i guess. from pictures, talking to your mother, etc. but it's you let yourself buy into them and accept them as truth. thats the ego rationalizing. there is no way you just are and always have been. there has to be an explanation.

Without their ego striving to cure a disease, feed more people, or even just raise a family whos members happen to be your ancestors, you'd have never even been able to consider the idea that an ego is bad.

i agree, but i'd also say that Earth as a whole and our species in general is much worse today than it was tens of thousands of years ago. im guessing 75% of the human population didn't live in poverty tens of thousands of years ago. we created that for ourselves. a product of greed. a product of desire. a product of attachment. yeah we've made all these great medical discoveries, but what good is it when everyones starving and has no roof over their heads?

The only ways I see to get over your ego is to die or not be born. I've only experienced one of these states so far and there wasnt a whole lot there. I'll take the ego anyday.

again, an assumption that you were born, also an assumption that you will die. and i guess i am making an assumption myself that you have never experienced them. if you wanna learn more about disolving the ego read up on eastern philosphy and religion or some psychoactive plants/chemicals. there is plenty to learn and experience about ego death.

Without a physical form how does one experience consciousness, dreaming, will, intent, or epiphany? If I have to have a physical form to experience or perceive, how can the latter two be all that there is? It seems to me that the physical form is much more important. The fact that there is a physical form constitutes a physical reality. The physical reality therefore is the most real of all of the fore-mentioned concepts because it is the pre-requisite to them all.

the physical form is an illusion you've created. it is what it is, but you're the one attempting to define it based on assumptions. you're just an ego.

To close this jumble of thoughts that are getting more and more incoherent as I add to them; I'd like to take a minute to stand up for science and show one major reason why the phenomenon that it studies do not fall into the same category as religion.

Religion requires faith and at least one believer. Take away all people of a particular faith and that religion is gone. You cannot prove many of the things spoken of by religion, hence faith.

The things that science studies are outside of those bounds. Regardless of there being people around the phenomena studied by science still exist. All things within science that are accepted as fact can be proven by anyone willing to take the time to do it. Gravity does not need you to believe in it. It will act upon you no matter what and can be studied and found to have the same effects by two guys on opposite sides of the globe who've never met.

Ok...I'm done.

how is science outside of you? again, i'll bring up the same point i always do. are you learning about an external world or are you leanring the limits of your own perception? you make the assumptions everything is seperate from you. you believe whatever you want.

 

[zlatan fulgere]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

To close this jumble of thoughts that are getting more and more incoherent as I add to them; I'd like to take a minute to stand up for science and show one major reason why the phenomenon that it studies do not fall into the same category as religion.

I've made the realization that science represents our (or even my) perceived environment. That notion requires no belief. To rely upon science requires the belief that our perceptions and therefore the appearance of that environment will remain consistent. This type of "belief" is open to the possibility of being incorrect. A religious person's belief in a higher power being open to the possibility of being incorrect invalidates it. That's a distinction I would make.

 

[Addiction]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

RED MEAT . Meat Locker . mirth's tattered hand-me-downs

Courtesy of Red Meat.

 

[Ego_Lost]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Ceb, remember when we used to be on the same wave-length concerning most of this stuff? Funny huh.

What if the ego is your only true friend in this reality? Instead of building an illusion, it helps to teach and guide you for the short time that you get to exist. The universe is predatory (not necessarily in the Carlos Castaneda kind of way) and if you dont have a way to activly fight back you'll be lost.

Ape, I've spent my fair share of time dissolving my ego. (trust me)
One thing I've taken from all of it is that it is wrong to fool yourself.
You are a human being. As such, you have basic needs for food, water, health and sex. Without the ego none of these needs could be met. Regardless of whatever existential topic you want to consider, you are human in the here and now. Losing your ego is the illusion. It cannot be done without the loss of your life as well.

Ape, I'd also like to contest your assertion that humans and society are worse off now than they were tens of thousands of years ago. I'd bet that by todays standards 75% of people didnt live in poverty back then, they ALL did. Nearly every human on this Earth who is not under the barrel of a gun right now has more to eat, warmer clothes and better general health than the average 10,000 year old person. Greed, desire and the kind of attachment that you are talking about did not create crops that can feed millions, synthetic fibers to cloth the world, hundreds of billions of dollars spent annually on charity, medicine for the sick, etc., etc.; the ego did! I'm not ignoring the fact that there are bad places on this planet where horrible things happen, but the fact remains that the average human is better of in todays world than ever in the past.

Ceb, if you're not still within your physical form while you dream then how come the things in your dreams are based on physical senses. I'd be more convinced about the power of dreams if there were something there not based on physical reality. No matter how crazy a dream is, it is still based on ideas and senses from waking life. You still see, hear, smell, taste and feel things when you are asleep and your brain is active because that is what you do when you are awake and your brain is active.

I fell asleep in an empty room yesterday and I did not dream. I was unable to observe myself in any way and there was no one around to observe me. I should have blinked out of existence right? Funny thing though, I woke up again. It freaked me out a bit, but I still exist without observance somehow. Just a personal opinion here...the guy who first brought to the table the idea that "to be is to be perceived," Bishop George Berkely, may have been a smart man for his time, 250 years later and he's kinda weetarded though.

Anyone have any thoughts on free will. Can it exist? Does it exist?

 

[a noob]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

everytime you sleep, you dream, you just forget, or dont realize it. i learned that in psychology, i guess it could be debatable though.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Holy shit, he came back! I knew it! I'll respond in detail, EL, in a bit.

everytime you sleep, you dream, you just forget, or dont realize it. i learned that in psychology, i guess it could be debatable though.

Yeah, I also "learned" that you dream in black-and-white and that time is consistent in dreaming in my psych class. Two things which I personally disproved for myself through dreaming. The field of psychology is just a guessing game.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Ceb, remember when we used to be on the same wave-length concerning most of this stuff? Funny huh.

Yeah I was thinking about this the other day actually. The funniest thing of all is that we both feel we have moved forward in our beliefs and are stronger because of it but we've moved in opposite directions, haha.

What if the ego is your only true friend in this reality? Instead of building an illusion, it helps to teach and guide you for the short time that you get to exist. The universe is predatory (not necessarily in the Carlos Castaneda kind of way) and if you dont have a way to activly fight back you'll be lost.

I've thought about this, but my experiences with tripping teach my otherwise. If your ego is your guide, then you would say you are without a guide when your ego is dissolved? So you feel lost? I would say, I feel found. Without thought, without opinion, without bias, there is only purity. A purity that is marred by the illusions and misperceptions of daily life.

You are a human being. As such, you have basic needs for food, water, health and sex.

Sex is a need or a want? What about celebate monks? Does jerking post satisfy the need?

Without the ego none of these needs could be met. Regardless of whatever existential topic you want to consider, you are human in the here and now. Losing your ego is the illusion. It cannot be done without the loss of your life as well.

I'll let Ape respond for himself, of course, but I couldn't resist. One word, "Why?" Could not the same be said that you have given your (enemy) ego so much power that it has come to define the whole of your reality? Like a drug that you are so lost in you can't see the truth any longer?

Ceb, if you're not still within your physical form while you dream then how come the things in your dreams are based on physical senses. I'd be more convinced about the power of dreams if there were something there not based on physical reality. No matter how crazy a dream is, it is still based on ideas and senses from waking life. You still see, hear, smell, taste and feel things when you are asleep and your brain is active because that is what you do when you are awake and your brain is active.

That is all you have to go on, in dreaming. But in contrast to your assertion, the fact that there are other perceptions like "chills", "gut feelings", "intuition", etc. lends more credence to the lack of physicality. Have you ever looked at yourself while dreaming? Found your hands - as our friend Don Juan would say? If/when you do, it shatters the perception you described as your assumption because you see you, the you you have come to know and trust as you, changing before your eyes. It is not static, it is fluid, and that usually catapults me into a lucid state where I forget how cool that realization actually is.

I fell asleep in an empty room yesterday and I did not dream. I was unable to observe myself in any way and there was no one around to observe me. I should have blinked out of existence right? Funny thing though, I woke up again.

Okay, fair enough. But what if your perceptions are created on a moment by moment basis? So you did blink out of existence, and then you recreated this existence so you could wake up in it? The same way you create the existence outside the door before you open it. Possible?

It freaked me out a bit, but I still exist without observance somehow.

You sure believe you do, at least. This is why I say perception is reality. Your bias is that you are of this world, that this world is bigger than you, outside of you, and will continue on without you. So your observations, perceptions, and definitions (based exclusively on your ego) all search for connections and explanations that support your beliefs. Your enemy designs your life and you accept and support it out of the necessity for security.

Anyone have any thoughts on free will. Can it exist? Does it exist?

Good question. I think we touched on it a few pages back, or maybe that was in the other thread... We'll come back around to it, undoubtedly.

For the purpose of conversation, I'll say yes. We have free will because reality is only Will and Intent bound by Awareness.

 

[zlatan fulgere]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

The field of psychology is just a guessing game.

Yeah, anyone you know come down with a case of drapetomania recently?

 

[zlatan fulgere]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Anyone have any thoughts on free will. Can it exist? Does it exist?

I have other thoughts but I think we already covered em. (= This was discussed a little in another thread. I said:

"Yeah, har har. (= I think really though, we have free will in a sense. There's nothing immediate, direct and external that's always going to force my actions. As we move away from that, I'm thinking our free will diminishes. Our reactions are shaped by something. So, while we are theoretically free, we will act based on those factors.

For instance, I can misspell "theoretically" or I can look it up. Nothing stops me from posting "theroreticaly" but my personality has developed to a point where I don't wish to look like a complete retard. Therefore, I looked it up. (="

I still stand by that.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

Yeah, anyone you know come down with a case of drapetomania recently?

Hahaha. Damn psychos! I think my prof called that "scientific racism" or something like that.

edit:

but my personality has developed to a point where I don't wish to look like a complete retard. Therefore, I looked it up. (=

Is that free will or a defensive reaction based on fear?

 

[zlatan fulgere]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

edit: Is that free will or a defensive reaction based on fear?

That was my point, it isn't free will even though it appears that I've made a choice.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

I don't hear a fat lady.

 

[Cebrious Arcane]

Re: Newsweek poll: Americans believe in God, reject evolution

For Ego Lost and his lack of Search skills... again.