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Doom and Things (Re: 17 days in Doom)

Eos

Demise Administrator
Staff member
I will try to make this post as complete as possible, to answer all the questions posed in this thread.

Let me begin by clarifying that our point system was designed to introduce the mechanism of guaranteed drops, not to increase drop rates to OSI levels. The huge increase in drop rate that happened on OSI is a thing on its own, and it was highly contested at the time. I honestly believe their developers did not intend for such a drastic increase, but that's not relevant for Demise.

As also mentioned before in other threads, the average rate in Doom is still very much like the old drop rate. Drops have simply gotten a higher chance of occurring at regular intervals. Our point system can be seen as a mere normalization of these drop intervals.

We've been monitoring Doom artifact drops for a little over a month now. From May 18 to June 18, we had a total of 170 Doom artifacts spawn. That's an average of 5.48 per day, or about 38 a week. That means there's an ornament of the magician being spawned every week. (And indeed, in that period, 5 ornaments of the magician spawned.)

When comparing this to OSI, yes, this drop rate is indeed too low. However, if everyone was able to obtain all their desired Doom artifacts within a day, there would soon be no point in keeping Doom around at all. The server would be flooded with them. This also goes for Treasures of Tokuno, which is not enabled permanently for the same reason.

OSI must've realized this somewhere along the way, which is why you can see later expansions adding back rarer and better artifacts, with drop rates similar to the old Doom rates. (The Stygian Dragon and Medusa artifacts, for example.) Every game needs its "diamond ore".

This is why I believe that OSI drop rates are a bad idea. You may want that ornament of the magician now, but when you're getting one daily and struggle to even sell them, the whole system becomes irrelevant.

Now, I don't make decisions based solely on my own views. I'm willing to experiment with the Doom point gains to find a healthy value for the shard, which is why we'll begin awarding double points after this coming server wars. The point rewards may increase, or decrease, based on the observed drops after that.

For those wondering about the internal workings of the Doom point system, I will explain how the system that is currently active operates. (Beware, technical mumbo jumbo ahead.)

The system is based on the pseudo-random distribution, which is used and documented for other games as well (one such link). It works by increasing your chance with every roll, so that eventually the chance becomes so high that a successful roll is inevitable.

The accumulated chance starts at 0, and your chance increments are much lower than the projected average success chance, which makes it unlikely to get a successful roll early on. Similarly, after some time, the accumulated chance becomes sufficiently high that not getting a successful roll becomes unlikely. The result is that successful rolls are more likely to happen at regular intervals, rather than all over the place. (Which isn't actually truly random anymore, but "random enough" for added player comfort.)

Getting down to the specific system in place on Demise, every player character has a "total points" value which starts at 0. When killing a gauntlet monster, the total points from that monster are divided over all players with loot rights as follows:
Code:
points = totalPoints * ( 1 / totalPlayers ) * ( damage / totalDamage ) * ( 1 + luckMod )^2

The total points from the monster are scaled by the number of players with loot rights, as well as the portion of damage that a player dealt. This may seem odd, as it appears to be scaling twice for the number of people present (1/3 of players and 1/3 of damage for example). The fact that the point system adds these points to everyone's individual system makes up for this, and through simulation one can see that this maintains the division of chance present in the old system.

The luck modifier is a bit more complicated, and it is based on the GetLuckChance() calculation used for increased loot and such:
Code:
luckMod = luckChance / 8500
luckChance = luck^( 1 / 1.8 ) * 100

Wearing 2500 luck, for example, results in a luckChance of about 7,722 (which for loot would mean a 77.22% chance of a bonus property/item), which results in a luckMod of about 0.9, which results in a 3.6x modifier for your point gain.

After the points are updated on all players, a roll is made for each player where the total accumulated points represents a chance out of 100. When one player's roll is successful, the system stops rolling. This happens so that only one artifact can drop per monster (but everyone gets points). On a successful roll, the player is awarded a random artifact and their points are reset to 0.

Because the roll is out of 100, this means that once you've collected 100 points, a roll is guaranteed to succeed. (Unless someone rolls successfully for the artifact before you do, but then their points will reset and you will likely win the next roll.) In practice, however, people never reach 100 points. Most people receive an artifact at 0.3-0.7 accumulated points.

In the observed Doom drops from May 18 to June 18, 118 drops (70%) occurred before reaching 0.7 accumulated points, 148 drops (87%) occurred before reaching 1.0 points, and the highest point accumulation one person got was 2.27.

The total number of points a monster gives is different for Dark Fathers than the rest of the mobs:
Code:
DF totalPoints = 9.0 / 256 (since July 2014 this has become 9.0 / 128)
other totalPoints = 9.0 / 1024 (since July 2014 this has become 9.0 / 512)
(edited for July 2014 changes)

DFs do indeed give 4x as many points as other mobs do. On average, though, this still leads to only a double drop chance because of the nature of the distribution.

These values may seem quite arbitrary. They were decided upon through simulation of the system for different values. Using these matches the system very closely to the old drop chances (only slightly higher), for various luck values and player counts.

The above specifications should allow anyone to simulate the system completely.

I don't expect many people to read this post in its entirely, but if you, %i, are one of those people, then I salute you. Any further questions will have to wait until my keyboard replenishes its ink.
 
Last edited:
I've indeed read it all and I thank you for explaining the system. Now lets see if doubling the point gain will make everyone cut their wrists in desperation of the beloved shard economy.

EDIT: In fact, doing this more people will come down and will give more sustained data to help you figure out the key number.

Cheers!
 

hickman48

Knight
OSI must've realized this somewhere along the way, which is why you can see later expansions adding back rarer and better artifacts, with drop rates similar to the old Doom rates. (The Stygian Dragon and Medusa artifacts, for example.) Every game needs its "diamond ore".

This is not why new content was added it was for $$ keeping the same old stale content around people get bored so games add expansions. Since they want people to pay for content it has to be better than old content not just new need to give people a reason to play it / buy it so they add new stronger items. The reason new continent drop rates are so low would be mainly due to osi being sub based they don't want to add new continent and people be done in a week they make it a grind so people play it for a few months = more money of the term of the subs.


Little opinion i think you guys should go closer to the osi point system as you keep adding other content such as the last of the peerless faction artys and collection quest / rest of the ml crafting. Keeping the doom system the way it was / is just leads to stale game play, took a week or two to farm up a cc so happy i was able to stop doing the same boss over and over for one drop i could focus on other game play.
 

lord apollo

Sorceror
My drops before the point system = 0
My drops after the point system = 6 and counting. No orny yet though. :)

If you aren't getting drops, you're either extremely unlucky . .or you're doing it wrong.
 

Digatalas

Knight
I'm extremely unlucky.. I've been here for days now and still nothing :/ I believe the point system is better though so don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining.
 

Bama

Bug Huntress
Now, I don't make decisions based solely on my own views. I'm willing to experiment with the Doom point gains to find a healthy value for the shard, which is why we'll begin awarding double points after this coming server wars. The point rewards may increase, or decrease, based on the observed drops after that.

These double points come with a 1 day 24 hour gate into there right I think you forgot to mention that.

So the double points means I won't have to wait until September for my Frostbringer? COOL!!! Frostbringer comes in August
 

Chaos_Lord

Sorceror
These double points come with a 1 day 24 hour gate into there right I think you forgot to mention that.

So the double points means I won't have to wait until September for my Frostbringer? COOL!!! Frostbringer comes in August
I got a frostbringer today so don;t be upset if I don't laugh.....lol
 

Reximus

Page
We've been monitoring Doom artifact drops for a little over a month now. From May 18 to June 18, we had a total of 170 Doom artifacts spawn. That's an average of 5.48 per day, or about 38 a week. That means there's an ornament of the magician being spawned every week. (And indeed, in that period, 5 ornaments of the magician spawned.)

Do you have data for how many unique characters attended* doom in that period? or the average in a 24 hour period?

*attended = did enough damage to get looting rights on a df/room bosses
 
I will try to make this post as complete as possible, to answer all the questions posed in this thread.

Let me begin by clarifying that our point system was designed to introduce the mechanism of guaranteed drops, not to increase drop rates to OSI levels. The huge increase in drop rate that happened on OSI is a thing on its own, and it was highly contested at the time. I honestly believe their developers did not intend for such a drastic increase, but that's not relevant for Demise.

As also mentioned before in other threads, the average rate in Doom is still very much like the old drop rate. Drops have simply gotten a higher chance of occurring at regular intervals. Our point system can be seen as a mere normalization of these drop intervals.

We've been monitoring Doom artifact drops for a little over a month now. From May 18 to June 18, we had a total of 170 Doom artifacts spawn. That's an average of 5.48 per day, or about 38 a week. That means there's an ornament of the magician being spawned every week. (And indeed, in that period, 5 ornaments of the magician spawned.)

When comparing this to OSI, yes, this drop rate is indeed too low. However, if everyone was able to obtain all their desired Doom artifacts within a day, there would soon be no point in keeping Doom around at all. The server would be flooded with them. This also goes for Treasures of Tokuno, which is not enabled permanently for the same reason.

OSI must've realized this somewhere along the way, which is why you can see later expansions adding back rarer and better artifacts, with drop rates similar to the old Doom rates. (The Stygian Dragon and Medusa artifacts, for example.) Every game needs its "diamond ore".

This is why I believe that OSI drop rates are a bad idea. You may want that ornament of the magician now, but when you're getting one daily and struggle to even sell them, the whole system becomes irrelevant.

Now, I don't make decisions based solely on my own views. I'm willing to experiment with the Doom point gains to find a healthy value for the shard, which is why we'll begin awarding double points after this coming server wars. The point rewards may increase, or decrease, based on the observed drops after that.

For those wondering about the internal workings of the Doom point system, I will explain how the system that is currently active operates. (Beware, technical mumbo jumbo ahead.)

The system is based on the pseudo-random distribution, which is used and documented for other games as well (one such link). It works by increasing your chance with every roll, so that eventually the chance becomes so high that a successful roll is inevitable.

The accumulated chance starts at 0, and your chance increments are much lower than the projected average success chance, which makes it unlikely to get a successful roll early on. Similarly, after some time, the accumulated chance becomes sufficiently high that not getting a successful roll becomes unlikely. The result is that successful rolls are more likely to happen at regular intervals, rather than all over the place. (Which isn't actually truly random anymore, but "random enough" for added player comfort.)

Getting down to the specific system in place on Demise, every player character has a "total points" value which starts at 0. When killing a gauntlet monster, the total points from that monster are divided over all players with loot rights as follows:
Code:
points = totalPoints * ( 1 / totalPlayers ) * ( damage / totalDamage ) * ( 1 + luckMod )^2

The total points from the monster are scaled by the number of players with loot rights, as well as the portion of damage that a player dealt. This may seem odd, as it appears to be scaling twice for the number of people present (1/3 of players and 1/3 of damage for example). The fact that the point system adds these points to everyone's individual system makes up for this, and through simulation one can see that this maintains the division of chance present in the old system.

The luck modifier is a bit more complicated, and it is based on the GetLuckChance() calculation used for increased loot and such:
Code:
luckMod = luckChance / 8500
luckChance = luck^( 1 / 1.8 ) * 100

Wearing 2500 luck, for example, results in a luckChance of about 7,722 (which for loot would mean a 77.22% chance of a bonus property/item), which results in a luckMod of about 0.9, which results in a 3.6x modifier for your point gain.

After the points are updated on all players, a roll is made for each player where the total accumulated points represents a chance out of 100. When one player's roll is successful, the system stops rolling. This happens so that only one artifact can drop per monster (but everyone gets points). On a successful roll, the player is awarded a random artifact and their points are reset to 0.

Because the roll is out of 100, this means that once you've collected 100 points, a roll is guaranteed to succeed. (Unless someone rolls successfully for the artifact before you do, but then their points will reset and you will likely win the next roll.) In practice, however, people never reach 100 points. Most people receive an artifact at 0.3-0.7 accumulated points.

In the observed Doom drops from May 18 to June 18, 118 drops (70%) occurred before reaching 0.7 accumulated points, 148 drops (87%) occurred before reaching 1.0 points, and the highest point accumulation one person got was 2.27.

The total number of points a monster gives is different for Dark Fathers than the rest of the mobs:
Code:
DF totalPoints = 9.0 / 256
other totalPoints = 9.0 / 1024

DFs do indeed give 4x as many points as other mobs do. On average, though, this still leads to only a double drop chance because of the nature of the distribution.

These values may seem quite arbitrary. They were decided upon through simulation of the system for different values. Using these matches the system very closely to the old drop chances (only slightly higher), for various luck values and player counts.

The above specifications should allow anyone to simulate the system completely.

I don't expect many people to read this post in its entirely, but if you, Heavy Smoker, are one of those people, then I salute you. Any further questions will have to wait until my keyboard replenishes its ink.

I must say I didn't expect a response, however that was a very well written one. You've changed my opinion of the matter, and I agree that it should be hard or the market will be flooded. But how about we think of something very creative to give players a way of getting these without having to do the same old 15 year old doom rounds 100 times before they get a beserkers maul? There should be a different/more exciting "yet difficult" way to get artifacts.
 
Be interesting to see what my points are currently at given that I still have yet to get an artifact since the system first went in. When it was first introduced I spent probably 2 weeks farming starting at 3-4 hours a day off and on. I returned later figuring I had to be due for an artifact since I spent so much time there, but I was sadly mistaken as another 40+ hours of my life went down the drain. I came to a couple conclusions as to why this happened: my character is bugged, a sampire in a top tier suit with slayer weps and honoring is just trash, or much like the cake this point system is a lie. Now I don't believe that is is a lie since I have seen countless people get artifacts while I continued to get nothing but something is seriously wrong. I got more artifacts prior to this system than I have with it. Lets hope this double point thing breaks my losing streak. :(
 

Rmac

Sorceror
I vote EOS for president,you guys should shut your mouths and let the big bois do the big boi work and u guys can go back to farming blood elementals for coins for me cuz gauntlet is too hard for you lol
 

Rmac

Sorceror
just cuz she's female means she can't be president? whose to say a female can't be a big boi..you sexist?
 
I will try to make this post as complete as possible, to answer all the questions posed in this thread.
If all of this is the case then I have a very good suggestion to make... How about making it so that you can toggle a menu to bring up how many "points" you currently have, this will let people know that there is hope and not just endless doom runs for nothing. I'm sure everyone would agree to have a menu where they can see their doom points? Thanks.
 

Supercreep

Sorceror
If all of this is the case then I have a very good suggestion to make... How about making it so that you can toggle a menu to bring up how many "points" you currently have, this will let people know that there is hope and not just endless doom runs for nothing. I'm sure everyone would agree to have a menu where they can see their doom points? Thanks.

It would be nice to have a command that would show points. Then people can see themselves reaching a goal.
 

kolbycrouch

Knight
It obviously shouldn't have the same rate as OSI, you don't even need to elaborate too much as to why, it's a given. The drop rate definitely does need to increase though however. It should be made so that doing the gauntlet is NO MORE OR NO LESS effective on average as other methods of farming valuables, like replicas or peerless. I believe a 2-3x drop rate from what it is now, is probably the simplest way to achieve this though, orny's should be worth a lot but not 40-50kk.
 
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